IE HPFP Internals For E85

[littleloogy]

High Pressure Fuel Pump



Recently I have been testing a New HPFP internal Kit In an attempt to try something new. Integrated Engineering, a company out of SL,UT made this particular kit. This Kit was Designed for the 2.0t engine, But as you know (if you follow my other threads) our fuel Pump inter workings are identical. Every kit is tested on their Fuel Pump Dyno before being packaged for shipping. I was a little skeptical as first being that this Kit Retails at 479.00USD ($130 More then Autotechs). This is to be expected, as you get a custom made retaining nut that has a series of different seals that help keep fuel and oil separate (the MZR pump only has a single small X o-ring and a Scrapper found by @Enki; and his good eyes).



Integrated Engineering actually used to use Autotech internals, just like we do. Their engineering team discovered a few flaws in the design and wanted to create their own. Their idea was to create a pump seemingly identical to the OEM HPFP with upgraded seals, bigger piston treated with Nitride, and a lightweight spring retainer. They hit a home run with this kit.



Ill explain…



Theory (Testing In Progress)



E85 Compatible. Yes that’s right, an aftermarket HPFP internal KIT designed with E85 in mind. Sounds to good to be true, but believe me it is not. (at least in my case). I installed this kit early April, and have not had a single issue Running E85 Fuel. I am still amazed. Our OEM pumps were treated with a coating process called Nitriding. This process involves heating up the internals (piston and cylinder) and subjecting them to Nitrogen. There are different techniques for this, however I do not know what process OEM used. But basically, the nitrogen is fused with the heated metal and forms a Harder Surface.





Why is this important? Well Death will not develop on nitrate treated coatings… Ill say it again DEATH WILL NOT DEVELOP ON NITRIDE TREATED COATINGS. (says IE engineers) Think about this:



HPFP Player 1= “The plunger and barrel are created from a certified heat-treated bearing-grade stainless steel and undergo a special diamond like coating process for exceptional hardness and ultra reliable”



HPFP Player 2=“Coating is desirable to further protect the piston and decrease friction during operation. After testing dozens of compounds, a very strong coating was selected that is applied with a proprietary PVD process.”



HPFP Player 3 “-------- was the first to incorporate Plasma DLC coating on HPFP components to reduce friction losses and increase performance.”



Integrated Engineering “From the factory, the OEM HPFP includes a nitrided piston and cylinder. This is done to harden the parts significantly, reducing wear and keeping them within wear tolerances.”



When you look at every Major player in the MZR HPFP upgrade market, no one else is doing a Nitride Piston and Cylinder combo. One of the players were close and treated their pistons with Nitride, but I don’t believe they treated the cylinder like IE did. I would think that it is the seals that are accomplishing this miracle and not the coating, but Looks at CPE. Their pumps were not able to combat the effects of E85, but IE's Can? they are essentially the same design with a different coating on the piston and cylinder. CPE/APR, uses a Carbon hardening process (same as autotechs).


@Raider; Suggests that More testing is needed before recommending these internals... ill keep working at it. If anyone else would like to Join, Please feel Free

[Enki]

Originally Posted by littleloogy ...(the MZR pump only has a single small X o-ring)...

Incorrect. There is an X-ring at the tip of the retaining nut, but there's also a black plastic scraper close to where the collar seats in the nut; under this plastic scraper is another o-ring with unknown tolerances which may or may not allow a significant amount of oil through.

Good work otherwise though.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Enki Incorrect. There is an X-ring at the tip of the retaining nut, but there's also a black plastic scraper close to where the collar seats in the nut; under this plastic scraper is another o-ring with unknown tolerances which may or may not allow a significant amount of oil through. Good work otherwise though.

You know that came to mind, but in my defense I have yet to find that hidden scrapper o-ring... I am sure I'll find it one day.


Sent from my iPhone 6

[Cheapspeed]

@Smelson; @Zdraveca; @kevdog; @Mikey;

Possible E85 compatible HPFP.

[Zdraveca]

For me personally this would be useless. Whats the benefit of it if im out of fuel anyway? Convenience that when you go to the pump youll pump just E and not mix it? Aint that hard to mix anyway. Interested in seeing if it works tho, new things that work are always welcomed

[Enki]

Originally Posted by littleloogy You know that came to mind, but in my defense I have yet to find that hidden scrapper o-ring... I am sure I'll find it one day. Sent from my iPhone 6

Off the wagon (pink elephants and unicorns)

[Cheapspeed]

Originally Posted by Zdraveca For me personally this would be useless. Whats the benefit of it if im out of fuel anyway? Convenience that when you go to the pump youll pump just E and not mix it? Aint that hard to mix anyway. Interested in seeing if it works tho, new things that work are always welcomed

I would love to just fill up with E85. Plus I'm planning on 5th port in the future. I think I could sell the autotechs at a decent price. They're always in demand on our platform.
@littleloogy; how long have you been running e85 on that pump?

[Mikey]

Like Z said, the only difference would be convenience, actually you would be going to the pump allot more on straight e85 . So I would not be interested. I would rather have bigger injectors so we are not fuel limited..

[Enki]

I was getting 22 MPG on full corn a while back.

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Cheapspeed @littleloogy; how long have you been running e85 on that pump?

1400 miles. No startup problems, no WOT pressure spikes.
This photo was taken around 1200 miles


I am tempted to disassemble the pump, but I don't want to let the unicorn out.




Sent from my iPhone 6

[littleloogy]

@Mikey; @Zdraveca;
You ever think about going to auxiliary fueling? There is a lot of power to be made. @Enki; is proving that with his BT intercooler delete with chemical cooling setup. Every week his numbers are getting better and better.


Sent from my iPhone 6

[Enki]

I actually put the intercooler back on. Now every time I WOT, it drops to freezing in the intake mani and "Do you want to make a snowman" starts playing out my exhaust.

[Zdraveca]

Originally Posted by littleloogy @Mikey; @Zdraveca; You ever think about going to auxiliary fueling? There is a lot of power to be made. @Enki; is proving that with his BT intercooler delete with chemical cooling setup. Every week his numbers are getting better and better. Sent from my iPhone 6

Honestly with my power goals right now I may add a meth injection just to keep bat's down and for better efficiency, otherwise I dont really think I need it

[Spectrix]

Originally Posted by littleloogy Integrated Engineering, a company out of SLUT

Interested to hear more about this companies other possible talents?



Big kudos to you @littleloogy; for documenting so much extensive R&D on E85 fueling for this platform. Thanks.



-

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Enki I actually put the intercooler back on. Now every time I WOT, it drops to freezing in the intake mani and "Do you want to make a snowman" starts playing out my exhaust.

You planning on going back to the IC delete? If not, sell the piping to me. You know I need to remove some restrictions. Besides, My Engine wants to breathe fire, not icicles.


Sent from my iPhone 6

[Enki]

Originally Posted by littleloogy You planning on going back to the IC delete? If not, sell the piping to me. You know I need to remove some restrictions. Besides, My Engine wants to breathe fire, not icicles. Sent from my iPhone 6

I don't recommend it for summer, but you can get the parts from silicone intakes website. I used that and my own pipe cutter to make shit happen, but had the local fast shop pie slice the one pipe and beadroll all my cuts.

[g00s3y]

Maybe cleaning the whole pump and these internals with si-1 while installing them would make for 100% worry free e85 use?

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by g00s3y Maybe cleaning the whole pump and these internals with si-1 while installing them would make for 100% worry free e85 use?

No way Jose'
How about I just run these internals without It? They are already worry free E85 silly.


Sent from my iPhone 6

[littleloogy]

Wanted up update. 1600 miles on 100% E85 No issues. Contacting IE in hopes I can buy just the retaining nut with the seals. I want to take the pump apart for a visual confirmation, however, I don't want to damage the delicate seals.


Sent from my iPhone 6

[Enki]

Yeah let them know there is a substantial interest in the Mazda community for this.

[littleloogy]

They said they would help me out because I told them I was testing their FP internals, But as for the rest of our community no dice. They did not want to just sell the retaining nut, even after I explained the situation, they still refused. Their reasoning: they did not want people using their seal on someone else's (apr,Cpe)pumps. They did say that you could send in the nut for an exchange if you damage the o-ring at some cost I'm sure.


Sent from my iPhone 6

[Enki]

Sounds like a lot of downtime to me. Hmm... Tradeoffs.

[Easter Bunny]

Not if you never need to take them apart and clean them.

[littleloogy]

With any luck, you wont ever need to take the pump apart again. I am still surprised that it is not showing any signs of failure. I even stopped monitoring fuel pressure, I'm that confident.

Edit: just saw your post @Easter Bunny; great minds think alike!

Sent from my iPhone 6

[Dano]

didn't see what oil your're running...RP Dexos?

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Dano didn't see what oil your're running...RP Dexos?

Yes, i don't think I will ever switch to anything else, the shit just works and my OA's always come back good.

I wonder if I did switch oils if I will have a problem. I know my original e85 base test with autotechs I was on Pennzoil Ultra, I got four hundred some odd miles before my pump stopped working.


Sent from my iPhone 6

[cletusb]

If the new internals lock out the oil would it be as important to run the dexos oil?
My understanding was that the dexos was used as when the oil did get past the seal the black death wasn't as bad.

[littleloogy]

Theoretically yes. I should be able to run any oil I want. I am following your lead on this @cletusb; should I switch oils to Rotella?


Sent from my iPhone 6

[Cheapspeed]

Originally Posted by littleloogy Theoretically yes. I should be able to run any oil I want. I am following your lead on this @cletusb; should I switch oils to Rotella? Sent from my iPhone 6

It's one of the most common for Speed owners, especially on the stock smokey k04.

[Mazdazilla6]

I say go back to Pennzoil first. See if a it has any effects before you switch straight back to Rotella which is documented to be one of the worst oils to run with E.

[littleloogy]

I fear for my pump. I keep a spare pump in my trunk, just in case of seizure. Challenge accepted. Will change oil at 2000 miles.


Sent from my iPhone 6

[Dano]

Complete the testing until conclusive with dexos 1st. 3 -4 k miles just to be sure.

Tappin

[cletusb]

Originally Posted by littleloogy Theoretically yes. I should be able to run any oil I want. I am following your lead on this @cletusb; should I switch oils to Rotella?

I would go with @Dano; on this one, worth doing a miles with the RP Dexos as a base line if nothing else.
You have already taken a leap of faith when I posted the IE internals as an option. I'd jump on them now but the AUD/USD exchange rate has taken a dive

Regarding the testing it might be worth before switching to Rotella that you switch to another dexos oil to see if the RP is special for some reason.
I would vote for Mobil 1 5W-30 or even the Extended Performance variant as a good option given it should be widely available in all countries

1) Base line RP Dexos, if no death...
2) Test Mobil 1 vs RP, if no death...
3) Go to Rotella/Penzoil, if no death...
4) ???
5) Profit!!!

[Putin 2.3T]

So the difference between the CP-e pump I have and these internals is the nitride coating? Fuck me. Bastards at CP-e/APR cheaped out on me even though these sumsabitches aren't.

[cletusb]

Originally Posted by Putin 2.3T So the difference between the CP-e pump I have and these internals is the nitride coating? Fuck me. Bastards at CP-e/APR cheaped out on me even though these sumsabitches aren't.

I remember the CPE website mentions some sort of coating but I don't think it is nitride.. just based on marking hype the CP-e/APR does not have equalivents to IE's Proprietary alloy, retainer, new "custom" seal or the nitride coating

[Spec]

Just wondering, why can't you take the internals to a 3rd party to have them nitride coated?

[littleloogy]

Originally Posted by Spec Just wondering, why can't you take the internals to a 3rd party to have them nitride coated?

I doubt you can put a nitride coating on top of a carbon coating, But I am not a blacksmith. I would also think that after coating you will need to rematch the piston with the cylinder. Sounds to me like a big pain in the ass.

Our stock internals are supposedly treated with the same nitride coating. A good test would be to throw the stock internals back in and see if death develops.




Sent from my iPhone 6

[Oni]

Originally Posted by littleloogy I doubt you can put a nitride coating on top of a carbon coating, But I am not a blacksmith. I would also think that after coating you will need to rematch the piston with the cylinder. Sounds to me like a big pain in the ass. Our stock internals are supposedly treated with the same nitride coating. A good test would be to throw the stock internals back in and see if death develops. Sent from my iPhone 6

Put the stock ones back in and most here would develop a different type of death.

[littleloogy]

Car is out of commission for a while. K04 started to go out, new turbo install has come to a halt. My primary O2 sensor is seized. I am trying to work it out. I have about 15 degrees of rotation before it stops in either direction.

On a happier note. I made it to 1900 miles, but Cold starts seem to be giving me a little trouble. Taking a second to build pressure. WOT pressure is still good.


Sent from my iPhone 6

[Enki]

Spray with PB blaster, tighten, loosen, repeat. Don't force it and it should eventually work itself out without pulling the threads off. The secret is patience.