Resolving HPFP corn woes (black death/sticking spill valve)

[Enki]

First off, no-one should get their hopes up. There is no guarantee that any of this will work.

That said, let's get to the meat of the thread.

Issues:
1. Sticky spill valve; thin brown residue not unlike the shit on post-it notes.

2. Black death; thick, sticky oil based crud.


Projected causes:
1. Fuel boiling off causing fuel to deposit residues on spill valve parts (and to a lesser extent, internals).

2. Oil seeping past the retaining nut seals (both of them) and coking up causing the internals to seize in a compressed state.


Projected fixes:
1. Non stick coating on moving and some non-moving spill/button valve parts.

2. New PTFE/Teflon scraper ring for the retaining nut, along with perhaps additional o-rings behind it.


Current status:
1. Jet-Hot sending me a sample (for FREE! because they are fucking awesome) of non-stick coating which I will boil in a decent amount of e85 to confirm two things:
A. The fuel boiling off is the cause of sticky film
B. The sticky film won't stick to the non-stick coating

2. Pending Phate lending me his spare retaining nut and/or purchase of new fuel pump (to use current as testbed); measurements will be taken for the PTFE scraper and o-ring clearance (which I might just fill up with Permatex or Right Stuff), and JBR graciously agreed to cut me a beta scraper ring for testing.

The guys making it all come together:
@phate for retaining nut (Delivered!)
@jbarone for custom-cut PTFE scraper (Specced out and awaiting fabrication!)


TLDR:
I'm so hopelessly addicted to corn I'm going to Frankenstein my pump which will either save the day or crush countless souls

@phate @Bucker @silvapain @rfinkle2

[emag remrofni]

My face when I realize I'll never have corn woes because I live in california.

[predapio]

Maybe the corn kernels are too big to pass through the fuel pump?

[taf0422]

subbing for this as I would like to switch to corn soon as well...

[johnnyboy05gt]

so is it true they r phasing out e85? and if not u will have this perfected by the time i run it lol. i wish i was smart like u to figure this shit out

[Enki]

Right now I'm not figuring anything out; in reality I'm grasping at straws. Hence the "either save the day or crush countless souls" line. If this setup doesn't cure at least one of the two, someone with deep pockets will probably have to step up to the plate.

[rfinkle2]

Really creative ideas to fixing the known issues, and besides being subbed for results, hope countless soles go un-crushed.

In addition to your experimentation, anyone ever asked HPFPupgrade his thoughts on running 100% e85 and possible fixes to the problems?

[PapaSmurf]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Really creative ideas to fixing the known issues, and besides being subbed for results, hope countless soles go un-crushed. In addition to your experimentation, anyone ever asked HPFPupgrade his thoughts on running 100% e85 and possible fixes to the problems?

propane or its a secret.

[Enki]

Propane? In the fuel tank? I don't follow...

[taf0422]

Originally Posted by Enki Propane? In the fuel tank? I don't follow...

lol, you haven't been following erich's thread on 708hp have you? there was talk about propane being used as an fuel additive by HPFPupgrade and erich. not sure how much merit there is.

[Hamilton69]

Propane injection like meth or nitrous

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Enki Propane? In the fuel tank? I don't follow...

He is making reference to the secretive nature of hpfpugrade when he posts about potential future plans. LOL.

John mentioned the possibility of running propane injection on Erich's car in Erich's 640 hp thread.

HAHAH!

Edit: my peeps beat me to it!

[Enki]

Ah, well propane injection won't cure either of the issues above, as it won't touch the pump. As far as I'm concerned, that pump is on borrowed time.

[PapaSmurf]

i was being an ass.

[silvapain]

PTP John claimed the E85 spill valve sticking issues could be fixed with MMO. I told him he was talking out of his ass.

After a short stint being slow and uninteresting over the winter, I just got back on the sauce over the weekend myself. Running a 50/50 mix right now to play around with the new COBB tables. Subbed for findings Enki.

[Enki]

UPDATE:
@phate's spare retaining nut showed up today; thanks again man!

Only thing is I'm not terribly certain I can get the scraper out without damaging it (as it is made of plastic), so if you do want this back at some point unmolested, I'll need to make sure the replacement pump I just bought shows up before I do anything to it.

If this mod does work, however, I'll make sure to send it back to you in modded condition so you can hop back on the sauce without fear of black death yourself.

Sadly, the coated part from Jet-Hot has not yet shown itself.

[06Speed6]

I dont have access to e85, but I hope for you guys that this works out. I know yall have been working on this for a while.

[Postulio4joo]

Originally Posted by emag remrofni My face when I realize I'll never have corn woes because I live in california.

What part of LA are you in? I am currently getting E85 at 3.99 a gallon in a station located in Arcadia. Also my friend was running E85 in a place in West LA.

[Teethkikr]

Are these symptoms happening with ANY amount of the corn are introduced into the system or more or the 50% and up mixes?

[Enki]

Somewhere between 50/50 and 100% is where the black death kicks in; as far as the sticky, it appears to be kept mostly at bay with the 50/50 mix, or at least builds up very, very slowly.

[event]

Originally Posted by Teethkikr Are these symptoms happening with ANY amount of the corn are introduced into the system or more or the 50% and up mixes?

I took my pump apart today and it did have some black death in it. I ran 25% E85 for 3 months or so in the winter and ran 1/4 tank of 50/50 when my FP crapped out.

[Nataphen]

About a 30-40% mix should put you at or near MBT without KR. You may gain some power after that from the cooler charge, but the headaches of running a higher mix don't seem to be worth it. @Enki,we're all counting on you to make 100% e85 easy. NO PRESSURE THOUGH!!!

[Mizzle]

The Model-T could run 100% Ethanol but we can't without all this work.
Thanks, Ford.

I don't know if it matters, but the US uses anhydrous ethanol.

I'm curious - is the black shit just impurities in the fuel being left behind (like hard water stains) ?

Side-note: Why the fuck aren't we running Butanol?

[Enki]

Nah, that's not what black death looks like; THIS is what black death looks like: http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...lack-death.jpg

Also, I'd wager it was your spill valve that needed cleaning to resolve the pressure, not the internals themselves, right?

Originally Posted by Mizzle I don't know if it matters, but the US uses anhydrous ethanol. I'm curious - is the black shit just impurities in the fuel being left behind (like hard water stains) ?

The only time you can get away with using non-anhydrous eth is when you're running it straight; you don't want water content in your fuel, especially in e85 as too much causes separation of the 85 from the 15.

The black shit is oil bypassing the scraper and seals in the retaining nut, which cokes up due to high heat and the nature of the fuel (which can't clean it out).

[Mizzle]

Just to bring attention to my edit:

Why aren't we running Butanol?

[dooderek]

theres plenty of corn in cali, im on it

[event]

Originally Posted by Enki Nah, that's not what black death looks like; THIS is what black death looks like: http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...lack-death.jpg Also, I'd wager it was your spill valve that needed cleaning to resolve the pressure, not the internals themselves, right? The only time you can get away with using non-anhydrous eth is when you're running it straight; you don't want water content in your fuel, especially in e85 as too much causes separation of the 85 from the 15. The black shit is oil bypassing the scraper and seals in the retaining nut, which cokes up due to high heat and the nature of the fuel (which can't clean it out).

Well whatever it was in mine, it was sticky. It's not as bad as your example, but I bet it's the same stuff. I cleaned my spill valve and it didn't fix it. The spill valve was fairly clean already.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Mizzle Just to bring attention to my edit: Why aren't we running Butanol?

Because it isn't available at the pump?

Originally Posted by event Well whatever it was in mine, it was sticky. It's not as bad as your example, but I bet it's the same stuff. I cleaned my spill valve and it didn't fix it. The spill valve was fairly clean already.

So your internals were covered with the same black crud, and were largely seized in the compressed position?

[event]

Originally Posted by Enki Because it isn't available at the pump? So your internals were covered with the same black crud, and were largely seized in the compressed position?

No, it was sticky and black and I was running some ethanol. What other buildup could it be? See thread: Low fuel pressure at idle

[Enki]

Originally Posted by event No, it was sticky and black and I was running some ethanol. What other buildup could it be? See thread: Low fuel pressure at idle

I responded to your thread. Clean it out with lighter fluid/naphtha, as it's the only thing I've found that just eats both black death and the sticky away easily.

[Teethkikr]

So.. I can run up to 50% mix without the major black death shit and maybe be okay? Is there any power to be gained with light mixes or should I just stay away if I am worried?

[Enki]

My car is running just fine on 50/50 with no oil scraper in the pump (which is likely the source of the black death). Bearing that in mind, I didn't even get out of the driveway on 100% e85 before it seized without the scraper; before I would get at least 20 miles out of it. There is a fair amount of power to be gained from light mixes even if you only have an intake; timing is a hell of a thing.

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by Teethkikr So.. I can run up to 50% mix without the major black death shit and maybe be okay? Is there any power to be gained with light mixes or should I just stay away if I am worried?

With just 3 gallons of e-85 you can gain quite a bit of power wit timing, and 0 kr.

[event]

Originally Posted by Teethkikr So.. I can run up to 50% mix without the major black death shit and maybe be okay? Is there any power to be gained with light mixes or should I just stay away if I am worried?

On 25% E85 I gained around 40hp, according to virtual dyno.

[Teethkikr]

I appreciate the info. I am getting as many opinions on this stuff before I go and get some of this stuff..

[Enki]

Back on topic; will be calling Jet-Hot tomorrow to get tracking/shipping information.

[GLORIFIEDBOZO]

Been out of the loop lately time to jump back in. currently on my second or 3rd tank of 93 after putting 10k miles of straight E85 on the car. Still never had spill valve issue's as bad as most people, only seemed to stick when doing highway driving. I did get the black gunk though, and would pull the pump about every 4-6 weeks to clean it.

[event]

Originally Posted by GLORIFIEDBOZO Been out of the loop lately time to jump back in. currently on my second or 3rd tank of 93 after putting 10k miles of straight E85 on the car. Still never had spill valve issue's as bad as most people, only seemed to stick when doing highway driving. I did get the black gunk though, and would pull the pump about every 4-6 weeks to clean it.

What happens to fuel pressure when it sticks? Does it stay consistently low?

[cld12pk2go]

My personal experience is that I only have low fuel pressure issues when I am around E45+.

I never have an issue with < E40...

[Enki]

Originally Posted by event What happens to fuel pressure when it sticks? Does it stay consistently low?

Depends. You'll see/feel a blip in power, but won't "catch" it on a logging device. Then it happens more frequently until at some point it just shits the bed totally, and only occasionally high RPM will knock it loose for a short period of time, until, well, it just won't any longer.

Originally Posted by GLORIFIEDBOZO Been out of the loop lately time to jump back in. currently on my second or 3rd tank of 93 after putting 10k miles of straight E85 on the car. Still never had spill valve issue's as bad as most people, only seemed to stick when doing highway driving. I did get the black gunk though, and would pull the pump about every 4-6 weeks to clean it.

I'm thinking things will get worse over time for you, until you are at the point that both Phate and myself are at where you won't be able to go through a quarter tank before having issues. Mine started out like that too; no problems for a long time, then it slowly started having problems which ballooned at an extremely aggressive rate.