Upgraded injectors (because aux fuel is for losers)

[Enki]

Thread for discussing aftermarket injectors and modifications needed to make them work.

Lord master supreme burrito
@littleloogy;

Logistics / Tracking / Whippet
@Enki;

Contributors
@littleloogy; machinework & mockup
@maisonvi; machinework & mockup
@xfeejayx; custom fuel rail
@davychronic; contacting GDI companies
@mituc; contacting GDI companies
@MiUnicorn; contacting GDI companies
@Mazdazilla6; independent projects
@Djohns; independent projects
@Vansquish; independent projects
@mize13; injection simulation


Independent Projects

FSI RS4
@littleloogy; FSI RS4 injector mockup and test fitting

HPRV
@Enki; options for higher pressure RV

LNF
@Mazdazilla6; & @Enki;POTENTIAL CANDIDATE! LNF/ZZP injectors @ ~130 lbs/1300 CC
@maisonvi; & @Mazdazilla6; seal design for LNF injectors
@maisonvi; & @Mazdazilla6; @xfeejayx; custom fuel rail

HDEV
@Djohns; Ecoboost injector compatibility with friend @ ford;
Looking into HDEV-5 injectors?
Resistance from Ford on injectors
Injector dimensions are an issue


MISC

@CorkSport; Corksport injectors?
Went nowhere; abandoned.

@Vansquish; finding company that’s adapting skyactive injectors for l3vdt

@mize13; injection simulation

@maisonvi; head machine work and mockup


Donators
@xfeejayx; injector harness
@Micha; 6 injector harness
@cshunter; injector harness
@mr.speedy3; injector harness
@nindoja; CP-e injector seals
@maisonvi; spare fuel rail and injectors - LNF injector ordered 11/17
@Enki; ZZP injectors ordered 11/22 shipped 11-23
@Djohns; LNF injectors
@speedfreak44; LNF injectors ordered 11/12
@Mazdazilla6; LNF injectors
@Tokay444; custom injector seals
@HawkeyeGeoff; 4 DISI-MZR injectors; has contact @ bosch
@neganox; Cat pictures / monies / internet (cat) handjobs
@Jh8909; Up to $1k startup funds (best to reserve for final product)
@magicka; Money and used stock injectors


Companies to contact:

Deatschwerks
Contacted by @Enki; no response

Bosch
inquiry@service-solutions.com
Contacted by @Enki; redirected to a local company; no response
@HawkeyeGeoff; offered to reachout to bosch contacts

APR
Injectors made by bosch?

ZZP
@Enki; contacted via email - test injectors ordered 11-22
@MiUnicorn; could visit during the week of 11/23-11/30

Magneti Marelli
@davychronic; emailed

Generant
@davychronic; emailed

Delphi
@mituc; could visit

Comp Cams
@Enki; contacted company, but not interested

Additional Companies?
@davychronic; additional companies not interested.

[Enki]

I've emailed Deatschwerks to see if they might be interested in adding another engine code to their list of supported platforms.

[Tokay444]

They said no the last few times...

[Enki]

Well maybe we didn't ask loud enough.

[Easter Bunny]

Yes I get to do the most brownie thing possible.......












Subbed.

[Djohns]

Much need for injectors. Much fear of the dirtiness of E

[Mazdazilla6]

@Enki; Try asking Bosch. They make practically every DI injector for all the OEMs as well as the aftermarket. They might be willing to replicate our body and put their guts in it.

In other news I'm going to try and buy a used LNF injector (once I get money for it) and see what it takes to make it fit in my trashed/spare head.

[Enki]

Since I can't find an email address, I'll give them a call tomorrow.

[NCspecV81]

In AF.

[radbrad]

Theoretical cost of possible injectors?

I have no idea what after market DI injectors might run...

[Enki]

Depends. Our stockers are ~200 per, the ONE set of bored out ones was ~250 per, and other ones are as low as ~100 per.

[radbrad]

So if we DID, and that's a big did, get injectors made...

The options would be:

To have some oem like injectors that would fit perfectly in the stock head and have current good injectors seals fit properly, and is eay to tune. Legit option.

Or have injectors that fit in the head properly like the above option, and would need a new wiring harness. still very doable.

Something in between...

Or have injectors that would need head work, new seals, new harness, new rail, new tuning solution....not great

[dale_gribble]

Probably best bet is going to be a retrofit, something like the CS or CP-E seals that adapts a different bore/length injector to the MZR head.

[MD1032]

Regarding the tuning solution...in the Cobb software, couldn't you just alter the Injector Scalar value under "Injector Control Tables"?

[Enki]

Yes, that's pretty much exactly what you'd do; decrement the scalar by whatever percentage flow increase the injector has. For example, on full E85 you'd change the FSG but not the scalar if the injector flows 30% more; I'm sure, however, that this will take some experimentation to see to fruition.

[davychronic]

Originally Posted by Enki Since I can't find an email address, I'll give them a call tomorrow.

Found one for you, Bosch Performance customer service/tech assistance


inquiry@service-solutions.com

[Enki]

Originally Posted by davychronic Found one for you, Bosch Performance customer service/tech assistance inquiry@service-solutions.com

Weird ass email, but sent. Let's hope they don't blow us off.

[davychronic]

Originally Posted by Enki Weird ass email, but sent. Let's hope they don't blow us off.

Ive also emailed a few companies that claim they do GDI racing applications.
When i say a few i mean only the two i could find...

[Enki]

Keep us updated please.

[Djohns]

I should try and convince my friend to lend me some of his injectors for his 335i and see what the main differences are and see if there's at all anyway possible to make them work on our platform. Worth a shot I guess

[Mazdazilla6]

If it's an N54 there's no chance in hell. They're piezo injectors not solenoids.

[Djohns]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 If it's an N54 there's no chance in hell. They're piezo injectors not solenoids.

shhhhhh. do you hear that? that's the sound of my hopes and dreams being flushed down the toilet.

[mazdafreak]

Doesn't it involve more than just injectors. The hpfp had to be redesigned etc. cause the hpfp won't be able to flow enough to those bigger DI injectors etc.

PI ftw.

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by mazdafreak Doesn't it involve more than just injectors. The hpfp had to be redesigned etc. cause the hpfp won't be able to flow enough to those bigger DI injectors etc. PI ftw.

A. No with Autotech's (really any upgraded HPFP) it flows plenty for slightly bigger injectors, (plus we have control over our fuel pressure tables, something cobalts don't)

B. I have a solution in the works for even more fuel which will compliment bigger injectors perfectly.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 A. No with Autotech's (really any upgraded HPFP) it flows plenty for slightly bigger injectors, (plus we have control over our fuel pressure tables, something cobalts don't) B. I have a solution in the works for even more fuel which will compliment bigger injectors perfectly.

Please to be PM me...I'll be tearing my car apart next month and might be able to actually test this for you.

[CWP_MS3]

Originally Posted by Djohns Much fear of the dirtiness of E

Overly paranoid about nothing... Don't run 100%, and don't use Rotella. Been running dat shit for years.

Originally Posted by mazdafreak Doesn't it involve more than just injectors. The hpfp had to be redesigned etc. cause the hpfp won't be able to flow enough to those bigger DI injectors etc. PI ftw.

Well without bigger injectors to test it, it's all theoretical and speculation. lol

Even then, say your statement was accurate, it could potentially supply enough fuel to be more ideal for people who want to push a bit more power, but not make a ton. If it was enough fueling even for low 400s, or guys to actually take full advantage of smaller turbos, I think people would love that option over meth. To be able to push a BNR or GTX2871 full tilt with E85 and no meth, would be epic.

[Code Monkey]

Originally Posted by CWP_MS3 To be able to push a BNR or GTX2871 full tilt with E85 and no meth, would be epic.

This.

[maddocx240]

well we can always look at the ford ecoboost motors. since they are similar in design. maybe the injectors might be interchangeable with some persuasion. didnt @CorkSport; say they were working on something?

[HawkeyeGeoff]

I don't know if it helps at all, but I have a spare set of injectors I'd be willing to part with for science.

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by maddocx240 well we can always look at the ford ecoboost motors. since they are similar in design. maybe the injectors might be interchangeable with some persuasion. didnt @CorkSport; say they were working on something?

@kritz; might be able to get them to show their hand.

[Enki]

Bosch replied already and is redirecting me to somewhere local that can assist further...Might need an injector or two shipped off somewhere for science, but that time has not yet come.

[Dano]

I think Mazdazilla said it but IMO the place to start is with an injector that is closest "electrically" to ours, so we can drive them with our ECU, and work around fitment with injector seals, rail, height, harness, etc. When engineering a solution, start with the hardest aspect of it. If you can't overcome that the rest is a waste of time isn't it?

Trying to engineer an external controller will be a huge undertaking and/or defeat the purpose here I believe. If I have to buy/tune a MS2/3 or SS controller why waste the time on replacing the OEM injectors/seals/rail/harness/etc. Another thought is that once you do have to replace all of those the cost alone meets or exceeds the Kosmic 5/6th port kit after all. In my mind it's as much economics as it is "well we can do it" and be able to say we have upgraded injectors vs 5th port.

not hating on the project/idea, just expressing a point of view.

[Enki]

Hence the reachout to Bosch; they might be able to Frankenstein a handful of parts together and get us a whole lot closer to drop in... It would be nice if all we needed was, say, a fuel rail and the injectors.

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by Enki Hence the reachout to Bosch; they might be able to Frankenstein a handful of parts together and get us a whole lot closer to drop in... It would be nice if all we needed was, say, a fuel rail and the injectors.

I definitely used to work for Bosch in farmington hills....let me know who the contact is. I may be able to get the inside track on this stuff. DI has come a long way since 2007.

Sent while granny shifting, not doubling clutching like I should

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff I definitely used to work for Bosch in farmington hills....let me know who the contact is. I may be able to get the inside track on this stuff. DI has come a long way since 2007. Sent while granny shifting, not doubling clutching like I should

Sounds like you should be the one making the phone calls.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Enki Hence the reachout to Bosch; they might be able to Frankenstein a handful of parts together and get us a whole lot closer to drop in... It would be nice if all we needed was, say, a fuel rail and the injectors.

I understand that approach and although DI is here to stay, which makes it attractive for OEMS as well as aftermarket vendors to develop solutions, our DI was a frontrunner AND is dead. Two strikes agents further dev on our injectors.

I may be wrong but isn't it true that most modern di injectors operate in the 2 to 2.5 K psi range? We are unable to achieve that for numerous reasons, lack of support from Cobb being #1 . So unless we can source an injector that operates in the 1600 to 1800 psi range, we are done from that aspect as well. If I'm wrong about that then it's good news for sure.

So I would list that criteria in my asks to injector vendors along with impedance/voltages etc.

Tappin

[Enki]

I'd imagine that a higher psi injector would operate just fine under 2k psi; the only question there is how much flow is lost, if any?

[Dano]

I'd worry about spray pattern myself, along with flow of course.

[Turbo_Steve]

Originally Posted by Dano I may be wrong but isn't it true that most modern di injectors operate in the 2 to 2.5 K psi range? We are unable to achieve that for numerous reasons, lack of support from Cobb being #1 . So unless we can source an injector that operates in the 1600 to 1800 psi range, we are done from that aspect as well. If I'm wrong about that then it's good news for sure. So I would list that criteria in my asks to injector vendors along with impedance/voltages etc. Tappin

Excellent point. I am not completely sure if we will ever be able to figure out the fuel pressure issue.

There has to be enough rail pressure for the fuel injection to overcome the cylinder pressure when the di injectors are spraying. So as HP increases, fuel pressure must increase. So trying to get to huge power numbers strictly on the DI injectors will most certainly require raising the fuel rail pressure. Things like more boost and higher compression will require higher pressure no matter what injectors you are running.

DI setups coming to the market are higher compression and running more boost than our platform in stock trim.

Port injection is a little more simple since you take your base fuel pressure of say 40 psi. You need to add 1 psi of fuel pressure for every pound of boost to overcome the manifold pressure and spray consistently. Getting 70 psi out of a PI rail is no problem whatsoever.

My ultimate plan is to put a fuel cell in the spare tire well and have it as an E85 tank used strictly to feed my port injection setup.

93 from the DI setup and E85 from the PI setup.

[Enki]

Ideally you shouldn't be spraying after the spark event, so you should only have to overcome boost * dynamic compression ratio * heat expansion (which should be significantly reduced on E85). That would amount to 20 PSI * 9 (estimated) * lets say ~20% = 220 ish PSI, and I'd assume this would only be this high right at TDC.

30 psi and 13:1 compression with 30% increase would only be ~500 psi.

...But I don't exactly know what I'm talking about and could be horribly wrong.