Upgraded injectors (because aux fuel is for losers)

[maisonvi]

Originally Posted by Turbo_Steve My ultimate plan is to put a fuel cell in the spare tire well and have it as an E85 tank used strictly to feed my port injection setup.

This is exactly what @HawkeyeGeoff; does

[Gr8Speed]

I have a few contacts in the trucking industry and asked around some injector companies, since our injectors are closer to a diesel injector than a regular port injector for a car. They basically told me at the volume they would be selling these, it's not even remotely feasible. For a company like Bosch to put the same level of work into an injector where they might sell what, 1000-2000 sets (optimistically) versus pouring those resources into a truck where they will sell 10x+ that, it just makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Dano I understand that approach and although DI is here to stay, which makes it attractive for OEMS as well as aftermarket vendors to develop solutions, our DI was a frontrunner AND is dead. Two strikes agents further dev on our injectors. I may be wrong but isn't it true that most modern di injectors operate in the 2 to 2.5 K psi range? We are unable to achieve that for numerous reasons, lack of support from Cobb being #1 . So unless we can source an injector that operates in the 1600 to 1800 psi range, we are done from that aspect as well. If I'm wrong about that then it's good news for sure. So I would list that criteria in my asks to injector vendors along with impedance/voltages etc. Tappin

My 335i hits 3200PSI

[Vansquish]

I'm trying to find the video, but there's someone (Speedperf6manc3?) doing work on swapping the Skyactiv injectors onto the L3VDT...

[Enki]

Pretty sure the Skyactiv injectors won't flow as much as ours already do.

[Gr8Speed]

Try talking to APR maybe? APR Company Information Huge in the Vdubber world for getting shit like this done, they might have more pull with the big companies.

[Djohns]

I asked my friend and he's going to ask his contact at ford if there is anyway possible he can sneak me some injectors and a fuel rail from a ecoboost mustang to do some testing and fitment with.

[Enki]

I have a trash head with good injector ports if they'd rather test for you.

[Djohns]

That may just work! Let me ask him.

[Vansquish]

Originally Posted by Enki Pretty sure the Skyactiv injectors won't flow as much as ours already do.

You're probably right, though they do flow higher pressures, for whatever that's worth.

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by Dano I think Mazdazilla said it but IMO the place to start is with an injector that is closest "electrically" to ours, so we can drive them with our ECU, and work around fitment with injector seals, rail, height, harness, etc. When engineering a solution, start with the hardest aspect of it. If you can't overcome that the rest is a waste of time isn't it? Trying to engineer an external controller will be a huge undertaking and/or defeat the purpose here I believe. If I have to buy/tune a MS2/3 or SS controller why waste the time on replacing the OEM injectors/seals/rail/harness/etc. Another thought is that once you do have to replace all of those the cost alone meets or exceeds the Kosmic 5/6th port kit after all. In my mind it's as much economics as it is "well we can do it" and be able to say we have upgraded injectors vs 5th port. not hating on the project/idea, just expressing a point of view.

Couldn't of said it any better. We are seeking a drop in solution albeit there's a chance that might mean modifying the head to make them fit

Originally Posted by Gr8Speed Try talking to APR maybe? APR Company Information Huge in the Vdubber world for getting shit like this done, they might have more pull with the big companies.

APR gets their injectors made by Bosch. They've admitted to it.


Bosch is our best bet. I'm not concerned by the pressure issues. From what I've seen our injectors are spraying on intake and part of the compression strokes. We don't have stratified injection so there is no fuel being sprayed anytime around the ignition event. From tests that others have done playing around with the injector phasing we can actually pull it back far enough to spray into the exhaust stroke.


Most solenoid injector DI cars run a fuel pressure similar to us or slightly higher. One of the big exceptions is BMW's N54 (and other piezo injector cars) which run 3k+ psi. Even if we run an injector designed for a 2k psi car it shouldn't significantly affect the spray pattern. If it did then that would imply that our spray pattern is drastically different between idle and wot, and I'm fairly sure they're pretty similar. And again about overcoming pressure in the cylinder, I believe we can spray enough fuel during the intake and first half of the compression stroke before we could even consider an issue of fuel pressure overcoming engine compression.

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by maisonvi This is exactly what @HawkeyeGeoff; does

With this setup, you pretty much have unlimited power potential.

@~600whp give or take, my IDC is just about 80% and the port injectors (4 60 lb/hr) run at about 70% capacity. You could easily up the injector sizes and get way more.

[WetzMS3]

Originally Posted by Enki I have a trash head with good injector ports if they'd rather test for you.

Originally Posted by Djohns That may just work! Let me ask him.

I've also got a junk head that I'd let be used for test fitting if need be. We're close enough that nothing needs to be shipped then. I'd also be up for doing the test fitting if they want their parts back too quickly to ship them out to @Enki;.

[Enki]

I was talking about shipping my head out to them, but that's fine too.

[WetzMS3]

Originally Posted by Enki I was talking about shipping my head out to them, but that's fine too.

Oh I know. I assumed @Djohns; contact was somewhat close to him. Making him closer to me than you. If any shipping is involved, its all you big guy.

[dale_gribble]

We're not going to get a ground up design per what @Gr8Speed; said.

There is a tremendous amount of R&D required to design an injector, much more for a fueling system with fuel rail and support stuff. These guys sell into OEMs in the hundreds of thousands and millions. The harsh reality is that nobody is going to do a ground up injector design for the probably 100 buyers that want to push past 400whp on a discontinued platform and if they did, the cost would be astronomical. If they had to recover R&D on injector design across hundreds of units, can you imagine the cost we would pay? What's it worth you to? $3k? $4k?

One path is to contact someone at Bosch since we know they designed our injectors and find out if that injector design ever went onto another platform and see if it was tweaked for that implementation which may be confidential information that they can't disclose. Who knows.

Otherwise, the only play is a retrofit from another OEM design. There has to be a design out there as a follow on part to the Bosch part ours had that could be retrofit. The Ecoboost or SkyActiv seems the most logical candidate since Ford partnered with Mazda on the MZR. Even then the cost will still be in the thousands for injectors, seals, rail, etc.

tl;dr 5th/6th port aux fueling bra.

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble One path is to contact someone at Bosch since we know they designed our injectors and find out if that injector design ever went onto another platform and see if it was tweaked for that implementation which may be confidential information that they can't disclose. Who knows. Otherwise, the only play is a retrofit from another OEM design. There has to be a design out there as a follow on part to the Bosch part ours had that could be retrofit.

Not necessarily. Our injectors are made by a subsidiary company called Nippon which is co-owned by Bosch and Mitsu. Our injectors are totally different from everything Bosch offers currently. There isn't much chance at all they will design an injector from the ground up for us but that's not what we need. We need them to shove the guts from an injector they already make into a body that fits our head. Everything else can be adapted very easily.

In other news I'll be buying an LNF injector in the next week to see what it takes to have it fit our head.

[CorkSport]

Originally Posted by maddocx240 well we can always look at the ford ecoboost motors. since they are similar in design. maybe the injectors might be interchangeable with some persuasion. didnt @CorkSport; say they were working on something?

We have tried/been trying to get something going for the past few years. We have hit some pretty big obstacles working on the project.

-Derrick

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by CorkSport We have tried/been trying to get something going for the past few years. We have hit some pretty big obstacles working on the project. -Derrick

Please indulge us on said obstacles.

[CorkSport]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 Please indulge us on said obstacles.

A manufacturing company that does not suck eggs.

[Enki]

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 We need them to shove the guts from an injector they already make into a body that fits our head.

A million times this.

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by Enki A million times this.

Totally agree.

Again, I will give any parts I have and maybe even invest some money if that means we can get this done.

Sent while granny shifting, not doubling clutching like I should

[Mazdazilla6]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff Totally agree. Again, I will give any parts I have and maybe even invest some money if that means we can get this done. Sent while granny shifting, not doubling clutching like I should

Come over. We can do "head" stuff in the machine shop.

[Gr8Speed]

WHY do you want larger injectors? I'm going to guess the only logical answer is one of two angles- either stealth of not having fancy PI showing when you pop the hood OR OEM ECU control over the injectors, rather than having an auxiliary controller to rely on. Those are both very good points. But cost vs reward...

At the end of the day, a properly set up port fueling system has some great benefits. Even if this does happen, the cost is going to be astronomical compared to port fueling. Look at Subaru's staged injection system, there is a reason they're doing it that way. Clean valves, cool charge temps, etc.

I agree this would be cool to see, but I think it is going to be a hard sell to companies as large as Bosch where them selling maybe 1-200 sets of these is peanuts compared to their other endevours.

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by Gr8Speed WHY do you want larger injectors? I'm going to guess the only logical answer is one of two angles- either stealth of not having fancy PI showing when you pop the hood OR OEM ECU control over the injectors, rather than having an auxiliary controller to rely on. Those are both very good points. But cost vs reward... At the end of the day, a properly set up port fueling system has some great benefits. Even if this does happen, the cost is going to be astronomical compared to port fueling. Look at Subaru's staged injection system, there is a reason they're doing it that way. Clean valves, cool charge temps, etc. I agree this would be cool to see, but I think it is going to be a hard sell to companies as large as Bosch where them selling maybe 1-200 sets of these is peanuts compared to their other endevours.

I think for the majority of people a port injection setup costs, what? 1200 at least? How about all the quirks that go with it?

I think what we have kind of come up with is to somehow have someone retrofit guts from another injector into the ms3 DI injector. This way, maybe its even possible to do it yourself. Maybe its possible to have a company do it for us? I think we have totally knocked off the table having a company totally design whole new injectors.....but if you can hit 450 whp for 500-600 bucks (in upgrade costs) for the injectors, wouldnt that be worth it to a bunch of people looking to run E on their big turbos instead of running a (to them) scary meth system? Theres a market here for it thats for sure. Even the medium turbo guys would benefit significantly when running E on their stock block.

Sent while granny shifting, not doubling clutching like I should

[Enki]

Aftermarket injectors won't get us to 800 WHP, but they can get us to a maxed out littlebig turbo on full E85 (which is my goal). 400 is plenty for a daily driver, and the least amount of complexity in getting there, the better.

Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff I think what we have kind of come up with is to somehow have someone retrofit guts from another injector into the ms3 DI injector.

It's not the internals, it's the head/nozzle that needs upgrading I think.

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by Enki Aftermarket injectors won't get us to 800 WHP, but they can get us to a maxed out littlebig turbo on full E85 (which is my goal). 400 is plenty for a daily driver, and the least amount of complexity in getting there, the better.

I really think what im getting at is finding a company willing to rework the injectors with other guts. Thats really the solution. Send your old ones out and have them retrofit (or figure a DIY).

Sent while granny shifting, not doubling clutching like I should

[865ms3]

subbed for good info and a positive outlook. thanks to those putting in the work.


....but why is everyone so scared to run a little meth? i run two nozzles on a very basic pre throttle body setup and have enough fuel for almost 600hp. A proper failsafe can be had for less than $300.

*shrugs*

[HawkeyeGeoff]

Originally Posted by Enki Aftermarket injectors won't get us to 800 WHP, but they can get us to a maxed out littlebig turbo on full E85 (which is my goal). 400 is plenty for a daily driver, and the least amount of complexity in getting there, the better. It's not the internals, it's the head/nozzle that needs upgrading I think.

Or there. Even just retrofit something like that, make sure the spray pattern is reasonable and bam. Maybe they arent the best for X (drivability problems, fuel economy, etc) but maybe they could get us to the higher hp numbers

Sent while granny shifting, not doubling clutching like I should

Originally Posted by 865ms3 subbed for good info and a positive outlook. thanks to those putting in the work. ....but why is everyone so scared to run a little meth? i run two nozzles on a very basic pre throttle body setup and have enough fuel for almost 600hp. A proper failsafe can be had for less than $300. *shrugs*

Because some people dont want to have fuel in their car. Simple as that. Maybe they have kids and dont want their kid to be sitting in front of a tank of meth or dont want to retrofit a washer res in the front of their car.

Sent while granny shifting, not doubling clutching like I should

[Easter Bunny]

The whole point of this is being able to push a puppy turbo to the limit on one fuel. Fuck having meth and having to fill two fuel tanks on a daily. If we can get slightly bigger injectors to give us 20% more fuel it would be enough to cover all but the really crazy builds.

Everyone that thinks this is stupid please refrain from posting that position over and over again. The people working on thie effort are well aware of the availablity or meth and 5/6 port systems. Obviously that's not the choice for them.

[Enki]

Also having to do mixes at the pump (and fucking it up) is really, really annoying.

[Putin 2.3T]

EcoBoost F-150 | DeatschWerks

Fucking seriously? My Ecoboost F150 has upgraded injectors BEFORE the MZR? Yeah, you guys are fucked. No company is going to jump on to make aftermarket injectors, especially with an owner base that's dwindling in intelligence. The majority of genjuans are now hellaflush. It's only a matter of time until the genpu becomes affordable for those idiots.

#ford4lyfe

[neganox]

I like filling up my meth tank daily and terrifying my neighbors by spilling a giant race fuel canister with a chemical poison sticker on it all over the place and then running inside while screaming, "oh shit oh shit oh shit!"

But larger injectors would be nice.

[Dano]

I wear my yellow tiveck Hazzard suit and full face mask. Breaking bad style.

Tappin

[WetzMS3]

I prefer having a cigarette hanging out of my mouth while spilling methanol, adds some excitement.

[HOCKEYNUBE]

Originally Posted by Putin 2.3T EcoBoost F-150 | DeatschWerks Fucking seriously? My Ecoboost F150 has upgraded injectors BEFORE the MZR? Yeah, you guys are fucked. No company is going to jump on to make aftermarket injectors, especially with an owner base that's dwindling in intelligence. The majority of genjuans are now hellaflush. It's only a matter of time until the genpu becomes affordable for those idiots. #ford4lyfe

1000% correct.

We didn't buy an STI, EVO, or Honda we don't get aftermarket support at all compared to them, this is the battle we've always fought and will continue to fight until all the speeds are dead. The support we get now is 60% junk, 30% stance life, and 10% stuff that actually works.

We wont get injectors... move on and get a 6th port if PI is too much money. If 6th port is too much money get meth, if that's to much money then go fuck yourself.

And seeing that 6 injectors for the EcoBoost is almost a grand and don't flow all that much more than stock, they wouldn't sell a lot if they made ones for the MZR. I can buy a complete 6th port with twin 2200cc injectors for cheaper than that.

[865ms3]

In the amount of time it took you guys to make post about meth jokes.....an email or phone call could have been fired off to Bosch or whoever. Squeaky wheel gets the oil and all.

This...This is why we are dying.

P.s I fully support this venture. Nobody read my first line apparently.

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by Putin 2.3T EcoBoost F-150 | DeatschWerks Fucking seriously? My Ecoboost F150 has upgraded injectors BEFORE the MZR? Yeah, you guys are fucked. No company is going to jump on to make aftermarket injectors, especially with an owner base that's dwindling in intelligence. The majority of genjuans are now hellaflush. It's only a matter of time until the genpu becomes affordable for those idiots. #ford4lyfe

Originally Posted by HOCKEYNUBE 1000% correct. We didn't buy an STI, EVO, or Honda we don't get aftermarket support at all compared to them, this is the battle we've always fought and will continue to fight until all the speeds are dead. The support we get now is 60% junk, 30% stance life, and 10% stuff that actually works. We wont get injectors... move on and get a 6th port if PI is too much money. If 6th port is too much money get meth, if that's to much money then go fuck yourself. And seeing that 6 injectors for the EcoBoost is almost a grand and don't flow all that much more than stock, they wouldn't sell a lot if they made ones for the MZR. I can buy a complete 6th port with twin 2200cc injectors for cheaper than that.

I already asked nicely now gtfo with your negativity.

[mize13]

The more fuel you can vaporize in the combustion chamber, the better, especially with stock Pistons.

[HOCKEYNUBE]

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny I already asked nicely now gtfo with your negativity.

I apologize for my negativity and I must have missed your post combing through all the meth jokes.

But in all seriousness the price issue I brought up I still believe in, you're going to be looking at the sameish price.

[zenit]

Originally Posted by 865ms3 In the amount of time it took you guys to make post about meth jokes.....an email or phone call could have been fired off to Bosch or whoever. Squeaky wheel gets the oil and all..

Feel free to put me to work @Enki; . I don't only ask dumb questions amd annoy people online, it's part of my job IRL.