Upgraded injectors (because aux fuel is for losers) - Page 3

Dano

Originally Posted by Easter Bunny

I already asked nicely now gtfo with your negativity.

EB, I'd just like to go on record and say that I've kept my negativity in check, I think. You've seen my posts in the other, almost yearly started, threads about upgraded injector projects.

we are, and always be, the bastard step children of the performance world. It's just our fate.

That said, I love a dark horse project and a 20-30% increase, that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, would be a very nice option. Just not sure its attainable.

my thoughts on what's required (criteria):

1) injectors that are electrically similar to ours.
2) injectors that are the same dims or smaller than ours. (fab a seal, head, and o-ring. rail, that makes up the difference because you are buying seals anyway and o-rings are plentiful) * machining the head is out of the question IMO. go PI.
3) along the dim subject, injectors that are not too much taller, if at all, than ours (rail height)
4) injectors that can be controlled via the OEM ECU.
5) injectors that can be controlled via tables already exposed by Cobb. (cuz let's face it, Cobb is done with Mazda...yes this may come as a surprise and break the hearts of some, but it's a fact and a matter of economics for Cobb, and I don't blame them one bit, blame Mazda)

the rest would be relative gravy (hardline to rail, harness, etc.)

That's all I can think of at the moment, because....

Enki

If electrical is the same, control should be doable via scalar and pressure tables alone I would think. (lower pressure on pump gas, default scalars for corn).

Easter Bunny

@Dano; I agree with everything save one. Versatune.

Djohns

has anyone looked into the HDEV-5 injectors? I'm still learning about injectors and spray patterns and operating pressures so bare with me here but from what I'm reading on these injectors it seems that they can flow for what we are looking for and can keep a proper spray pattern. Maybe theres a possibility we can retrofit their guts in our injectors? just a thought.

P.S My buddy got back to me with what his connection at ford said. "He said the only way is to buy one to see. No one will lend any out. Its a new car so they wont be laying around and if they are they have to be sent back for warranty."

I attached a photo of a couple injectors retrofitted with a HDEV-5 guts

mize13

Originally Posted by Enki

Ideally you shouldn't be spraying after the spark event, so you should only have to overcome boost * dynamic compression ratio * heat expansion (which should be significantly reduced on E85). That would amount to 20 PSI * 9 (estimated) * lets say ~20% = 220 ish PSI, and I'd assume this would only be this high right at TDC.

30 psi and 13:1 compression with 30% increase would only be ~500 psi.

...But I don't exactly know what I'm talking about and could be horribly wrong.

Close...

Otto Cycle Simulation Parameters:

Bore = 87.5mm
Stroke = 94.0 mm
CR = 9.5
Speed = 5500 RPM
Start of Combustion = 350 CA (-10 bTDC)
Equivalence Ratio = 0.78912
Temp1 = 125 *F
Pressure1 = 2.4 bars
Density Air = 2.7 kg/m3
Fuel = Gasoline
Engine Wall Temp = 500 K
Burning Time = Variable (because I don't know)

Take it for what it's worth, results from a program written in fortran. Doesn't take into account energy transfer from fuel vaporization and thus in-cylinder pressure drop, but gives you ballpark.

Mazdazilla6

Assuming we can get LNF/Opel injectors to fit with some ease, they are totally proper electrically, offer 25% more flow than we have now and a whole set with a fuel rail costs $350 brand new.

As it's been stated we are well aware there are meth systems and 5/6th and PI. But frankly I don't want to run a second fuel tank, a standalone controller or both. It's not appealing, plain and simple. My car is driven daily (when it works) and the less I have to think about the better. I want my fuel from one tank and my electronics controlled by one computer.

Part of why I'm helping do this, even if it fails, is because I'd rather attempt and fail than sit behind my computer and say, "oh this platform is dead there's nothing new to do" FUCK THAT. Look at every other community out there, they are always making improvements and taking more steps. We already know our platform can make good power, we're approaching 900whp, but that's the .01%. This is something that could help tons of builds, and allow greater power at a much more simple package. Frankly, I'd rather do something that helps 100 people get to 400hp than 1 person to 1000hp.

Enki

Originally Posted by mize13

Close...

Otto Cycle Simulation Parameters:

Bore = 87.5mm
Stroke = 94.0 mm
CR = 9.5
Speed = 5500 RPM
Start of Combustion = 350 CA (-10 bTDC)
Equivalence Ratio = 0.78912
Temp1 = 125 *F
Pressure1 = 2.4 bars
Density Air = 2.7 kg/m3
Fuel = Gasoline
Engine Wall Temp = 500 K
Burning Time = Variable (because I don't know)

Take it for what it's worth, results from a program written in fortran. Doesn't take into account energy transfer from fuel vaporization and thus in-cylinder pressure drop, but gives you ballpark.

This is factoring in combustion right? I was talking about in cylinder pressures just before combustion, which according to your graphs looks to be between 600 and 700 or so...That look about right to you?

mize13

Originally Posted by Enki

This is factoring in combustion right? I was talking about in cylinder pressures just before combustion, which according to your graphs looks to be between 600 and 700 or so...That look about right to you?

I had to run the entire simulation to get you pre-ignition numbers. It's likely reasonably close, doesn't account for that pressure decrease when you inject fuel, but we could do a rough calculation to see how much it would drop.

Obviously with more E, it's gonna drop more.

maisonvi

While I have seen these threads come and go, and I think it's most likely something that is out of reach for us I'm willing to help where I can.

I have a spare head, an injector or 2 and a machine shop. If things need to be made I can probably help there. Electrically and tuning wise, I'm usless. But other than than let me know if I can help.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

zenit

Lord master supreme
@Enki;

Helpers
@davychronic; contacting GDI companies
@Mazdazilla6; independent projects
@HawkeyeGeoff; inside track @ bosch
@Djohns; independent projects
@Vansquish; independent projects
@mize13; injection simulation
@maisonvi; machinework @ mockup

Companies to contact:

Deatschwerks

Bosch
inquiry@service-solutions.com
Bosch sent @Enki; to redirected to a local company
@HawkeyeGeoff; offered to reachout to bosch contacts

APR
Injectors made by bosch?

Additional Companies?
@davychronic;

Independent projects

@Mazdazilla6; buying LNF injectors and swapping guts
Buying LNF injector next week 11/9-11/13

@Djohns; Ecoboost injector compatibility with friend @ ford;
Looking into HDEV-5 injectors?
Resistance from Ford on injectors - anyone else?

@CorkSport; Corksport injectors?
Manufacts suck eggs. Stalled out.

@Vansquish; finding company thatâ€™s adapting skyactive injectors for l3vdt

@mize13; injection simulation

@maisonvi; head machine work and mockup

We've got some good tech talk in here, but we could use a little project management to keep this on track. @Enki; feel free to steal this and put it in top post if you want.

dale_gribble

People need to be completely honest about what they are willing to pay for a solution so those driving towards a solution will have a basic understanding cost metrics/parameters. What are YOU willing to pay right now to have a high flow injector bolt on solution?

EDIT: I would probably be willing to pay around $1k for a solution.

Enki

Originally Posted by zenit

Lord master supreme
@littleloogy;

Assistant supreme
@Enki;

Fixed.

Originally Posted by dale_gribble

People need to be completely honest about what they are willing to pay for a solution so those driving towards a solution will have a basic understanding cost metrics/parameters. What are YOU willing to pay right now to have a high flow injector bolt on solution?

EDIT: I would probably be willing to pay around $1k for a solution.

I'm fixing to have a custom crank cut from billet, and I'll be taking a loan out to get the engine built...The first one will always cost the most.

neganox

I can only offer jokes, jokes with cats, pictures with cats, and cash in order to purchase donor injectors in which to experiment with / dissect. I said injectors not hookers.

Maybe hookers... but injectors first.

desync0

Delphi Multec(r) GDi Multi-Hole Fuel Injectors

Would the delphi's be a better internals swap then the HDEV5's? The delphi's are good for up to 260 or 300 bar max. If I did the conversion right the HDEV5's are good to 200 bar.

Just using my googlefu and talking out my ass, figured I throw a suggestion in the ring.

Enki

Considering our equipment currently peaks at 138 BAR, I'd say the benefit of rocking significantly higher pressures probably isn't worth whatever the cost would be (especially since we can't really get aftermarket rail pressure sensors working properly).

Djohns

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6

Assuming we can get LNF/Opel injectors to fit with some ease, they are totally proper electrically, offer 25% more flow than we have now and a whole set with a fuel rail costs $350 brand new.

As it's been stated we are well aware there are meth systems and 5/6th and PI. But frankly I don't want to run a second fuel tank, a standalone controller or both. It's not appealing, plain and simple. My car is driven daily (when it works) and the less I have to think about the better. I want my fuel from one tank and my electronics controlled by one computer.

Part of why I'm helping do this, even if it fails, is because I'd rather attempt and fail than sit behind my computer and say, "oh this platform is dead there's nothing new to do" FUCK THAT. Look at every other community out there, they are always making improvements and taking more steps. We already know our platform can make good power, we're approaching 900whp, but that's the .01%. This is something that could help tons of builds, and allow greater power at a much more simple package. Frankly, I'd rather do something that helps 100 people get to 400hp than 1 person to 1000hp.

You're not very far from me so if you want, whenever you get the LNF injectors in, I can come out and lend a hand with whatever. Actually we've met before at the last meet at Damond's place. I was the only guy with a second gen

Mazdazilla6

Originally Posted by Djohns

You're not very far from me so if you want, whenever you get the LNF injectors in, I can come out and lend a hand with whatever.

That'd be awesome. One small problem, I'm doing all my testing up at school 4 hours away in MI. If I bring anything home though and need a hand I'll hit you up.

Djohns

Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6

That'd be awesome. One small problem, I'm doing all my testing up at school 4 hours away in MI. If I bring anything home though and need a hand I'll hit you up.

Ah damn. Well let me know when you come back and we can meet up. I've got tools I can bring. Plus if swapping actually works and they fit, since your speed is down for the count currently, I can be the test mule.

Jh8909

I would be willing to pay $1k for injectors considering 6th port is around that price anyway. And I don't need full port injection for my goals so no need in spending over $2k for that.

I'm all for the furthering and development of our platform, as "dead" as it is. I would rather at least try and get something going rather then just sitting back and not doing anything about it.

NoRegrets

I'm in the same boat.
I would rather spend $1k for an upgraded injector set up vs a more difficult (more shit to go wrong) 5th/6th port injection set up.

This platform might be so called dead, but I've seen otherwise.
With new members popping up, and old ones pushing it to new heights of higher HP and faster track times.
I still see where there would be a market for a more simpler fueling solution.

zenit

Originally Posted by Jh8909

....

I'm all for the furthering and development of our platform, as "dead" as it is. I would rather at least try and get something going rather then just sitting back and not doing anything about it.

@Enki; / @littleloogy; put this man to work!

Enki

The more diversity we have as far as trying to get something to work, the more likely we (as a community) will be to succeed.

Pick something no-one else is doing, and chip in (keeping thread up to date with your progress of course). If it helps, I can keep OP up to date with who is doing what and what their progress is.

HawkeyeGeoff

Originally Posted by Enki

The more diversity we have as far as trying to get something to work, the more likely we (as a community) will be to succeed.

Pick something no-one else is doing, and chip in (keeping thread up to date with your progress of course). If it helps, I can keep OP up to date with who is doing what and what their progress is.

update OP w/ a set of 4 DI injectors at the disposal of the group. Should be good still.

Enki

Op fully updated. Please mention me directly when you have an update for your section for me to add.

Upgraded injectors (because aux fuel is for losers)

Jh8909

Originally Posted by Enki

Op fully updated. Please mention me directly when you have an update for your section for me to add.

Upgraded injectors (because aux fuel is for losers)

@Enki If need be, I can supply $1k of startup funds upon serious inquiry into a development set of injectors. I don't want to test them myself as that job would be better suited to someone who knows what they are doing and what they are looking for. I would just like said injectors if they end up working

zenit

Originally Posted by Enki

Op fully updated. Please mention me directly when you have an update for your section for me to add.

Upgraded injectors (because aux fuel is for losers)

Awesome!

Let's keep this rolling guys.

Enki

Updated.

cshunter

I have a spare injector harness, if someone would need it for this.

davychronic · 06:17 PM

Sorry guys been busy af bout to be a dad any day now. I contacted both companies by phone and both told be no go on increasing flow on our stock injectors. One company, AUS Injection, told me that it could not be done and maintain the same spray pattern. So im curious how and where this one guy had it done. @Enki; Ill keep inquiring about it as i find companies that work on gdi injectors.

Interesting video I found on modified gdi injectors...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZmV10pFsCM

magicka

Originally Posted by dale_gribble

People need to be completely honest about what they are willing to pay for a solution so those driving towards a solution will have a basic understanding cost metrics/parameters. What are YOU willing to pay right now to have a high flow injector bolt on solution?

EDIT: I would probably be willing to pay around $1k for a solution.

Originally Posted by Jh8909

I would be willing to pay $1k for injectors considering 6th port is around that price anyway. And I don't need full port injection for my goals so no need in spending over $2k for that.

My long term goal is a nice, reliable 400ish HP daily. At $1000-$1200, new high-flow DI injectors that flowed at least +15% would be a no brainer for me, maybe a few hundred higher than that for a proven solution. Less would be better, of course, but I don't want the trouble of installing 5th port or PI, and don't like the idea of relying on meth as fuel.

I have a few injectors laying around that I bought to have cleaned and flow matched. I'd be more than happy to donate one or two plus some cash to the cause when the time comes.

davychronic

This looks promising... email sent
Gdi Injectors | Magneti Marelli

Oni

@Mazdazilla6; isn't the graph of VW injector voltage similar to how you said ours work (in below article). If so we may be able to adapt a GTI/Golf R injector. They have some 500 hp capable ones out now.

http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/view...text=auto_pres

Maybe the University guy that wrote this knows which is most electrically similar. He calls our mazdaspeed in that link so he obviously looked at them in his study. Might be worth an email to him. I can check if you want.

zenit

@phate;
FYI link above @ SIU

Mazdazilla6

Originally Posted by Oni

@Mazdazilla6; isn't the graph of VW injector voltage similar to how you said ours work (in below article). If so we may be able to adapt a GTI/Golf R injector. They have some 500 hp capable ones out now.

http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/view...text=auto_pres

Maybe the University guy that wrote this knows which is most electrically similar. He calls our mazdaspeed in that link so he obviously looked at them in his study. Might be worth an email to him. I can check if you want.

This seems like a very interesting article! I'm sure it has lots of useful info for us, thanks.

The issue is still with the resistances. Even if VW uses a peak and hold style system, their injectors still have x10+ the resistance. There's no way around that unless we make some sort of amplifier to the injectors. That's not something I have any interest in doing but someone else is more than welcome to try.

I just got paid so I should be picking up an LNF injector soon.

Mazdazilla6

Ordered. Shipping says the 19th for delivery.

speedfreak44 · 05:09 PM

Do we know exactly where our injectors spray? Can not be the cylinder walls must be directly toward the piston top? I need to read up on the different spray patterns I guess because this part is what is confusing me. The electrical portion can always be worked around so long as flow and pattern are correct. Off to the webz before posting anything else

Edit: is this relevant to those just catching up?
http://www.consulab.com/files/gdiHandoutrev20147e.pdf

Mazdazilla6 · 08:10 PM

The electrical portion cannot be *easily* worked around if it isn't similar to our injectors from the get go. Spray pattern shouldn't matter a whole lot. If the fuel injector atomizes fuel just fine on the engine it came in it will do the same for us. Multiport units or ones with a pattern are mostly there for atomization reasons related to emissions etc. Spray angle between our injectors and should be fairly similar to other options that use an injector in the side of the head (most DI cars on the market).

Some info I've found that I saved a while ago about our injectors says our spray angle is between 30* and 75* degrees. I imagine other injectors work in a similar window, the only thing that would change that would be if the angle of other platforms' injectors were more acute (parallel to head gasket) or obtuse (perpendicular to head gasket). I don't think they will vary greatly much at all.

speedfreak44

Inwas confused in regards to the spray patterns but I also was assuming them to be similar to PI injectors in that they spray forward and not at a particular angle until I read how some are directed toward the cylinder walls in different fashions. The electrical portion I was referring to is building some type of plug in box or whatever to go between the injectors and the harness that will adjust resistance. Again however I am just now reading into this stuff I was waiting a little to see where you guys were heading with it

Mazdazilla6

As far as a pnp electrical solution we cannot use injectors that have a higher resistance than ours. There is no way to lower the resistance in an injector without opening it up and chopping out parts of it.

I'm still hoping we will hear back from a GDI company in regards to making us a solution. Everything else that we are working on is an alternative.

speedfreak44

Has anyone here opened up a DI more specifically one from our motor? I am curious what they look like internally. Off to google again...

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