LC issue??

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Hi to all,i have make some progress with tuning my car.So i try to make some Launches i have enabled Megaspool i set the LC limit to 6200 and retard -7 , great results 6200 almost 26psi...

But when i try to start the car with LC after i realease the clutch the car is almost switched off ???????I attach logs in vt format and in a ecxel

I need help from anyone
@Steve@VersaTune;
@Ugnius@VersaTune;
And anyone else.....

[phate]

Have you ever been able to launch the car with megaspool enabled, but at a different RPM or timing setting? Have you been able to launch the car successfully without megaspool enabled?

[phate]

From the log, it looks like the car is holding the -7° timing value after the clutch has started to engage. Does your clutch engage early in the pedal travel (close to the floor)? It could be an issue where the clutch switch isn't activating/deactivating at a position that corresponds to where the clutch is actually engaging (car starts to move).

Can you grab a log of a launch and include clutch position and vehicle speed? You can take out KR, BAT, Fuel rail pressure, and either of the MAF values to increase resolution slightly.

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

I have never launch the car with megaspool enabled.without i have not try it now that the car is awd.at the past before the megaspool options the cars was launching perfect ..i will make a log with the values you asked.

In my opinion there is a fuel cut but i do not know why....

As for the clutch it is engaged almost in the middle of the pedal route...

[phate]

Originally Posted by RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3 I have never launch the car with megaspool enabled.without i have not try it now that the car is awd.at the past before the megaspool options the cars was launching perfect ..i will make a log with the values you asked. In my opinion there is a fuel cut but i do not know why.... As for the clutch it is engaged almost in the middle of the pedal route...

It doesn't look like fuel cut, but it's pretty low logging resolution. AFR looks good, and IPW doesn't go to 0 after what looks like the clutch engaging. There is a dip in IPW at 5.944s that could indicate it pulling fuel, but the resolution isn't high enough to tell for sure.

[Jarods7920]

See, i have experienced the same thing. Its like the car falls on its face. I just assumed it was the car bogging down due to low launch RPM...

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Jarods7920 See, i have experienced the same thing. Its like the car falls on its face. I just assumed it was the car bogging down due to low launch RPM...

I thought the same think the first time i experienced it.But then i raise rpm and boost and still the same reaction i even make a try with 7200rpm and 32psi still the same results. I even make a try launching the car with FWD and 6200rpm and 26psi same result again...

I attach one more log i have with 7000rpm and 28psi ....

[Enki]

So this is apparently what it looks like. I thought I just had too good a traction, even though I wasn't using my LC (never went WOT):

MazdaSpeed Forums Presents: YouTube

MazdaSpeed Forums Presents: YouTube

Edit:
Looking through my track logs, nothing stands out.

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Enki So this is apparently what it looks like. I thought I just had too good a traction, even though I wasn't using my LC (never went WOT): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BCWl3kM48I Edit: Looking through my track logs, nothing stands out.

Especially at last try thats exactly the bog i get ....

[phate]

Can you post your open loop ignition timing maps? Screenshots are fine.

[Realgib3]

This may be a dumb question, but has ANYONE successfully launched the car with megaspool in VT? Or have we Only seen cars making a ton of
Boost in 2-step but nobody actually launching.

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 This may be a dumb question, but has ANYONE successfully launched the car with megaspool in VT? Or have we Only seen cars making a ton of Boost in 2-step but nobody actually launching.

As i understant no one make real launch with megaspool enabled ..the weired thing is that without megaspool stil the same problem(but not so hard)

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Originally Posted by phate Can you post your open loop ignition timing maps? Screenshots are fine.

Here is your screenshots...i will also make new logs with the pids you request in about 8 hours..

[Enki]

Last time I launched with MS enabled, it was on the street and I just blew the tires right off of it.

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Enki Last time I launched with MS enabled, it was on the street and I just blew the tires right off of it.

If i understand corect the problem is with revs higher than 4500...in the past when i was FWD i have no problem launch the car but when i make a try to start the car with 2nd gear 6000rpm the same bog(always without megaspool)so i estimate the problem is not the megaspool ....

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Originally Posted by phate From the log, it looks like the car is holding the -7° timing value after the clutch has started to engage. Does your clutch engage early in the pedal travel (close to the floor)? It could be an issue where the clutch switch isn't activating/deactivating at a position that corresponds to where the clutch is actually engaging (car starts to move). Can you grab a log of a launch and include clutch position and vehicle speed? You can take out KR, BAT, Fuel rail pressure, and either of the MAF values to increase resolution slightly.

i attach logs as requested...

[phate]

It's pulling timing WAY down after LC deactivates: -13° in a couple spots. Reminds me of shift stutter behavior, which sort of makes sense being immediately after a clutch out action. It's not following your OL timing table. It's not likely, but can you check the timing in the other timing tables around that rpm and load (down to ~1.2 load).



Did/does the LC work for you in 1st gear?

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

i have good news and bad news
Bad news are that i check all the ignition realated tables and in that load i found nothing near -13 so i move on and disable the megaspool options for LC & FFS and i make them like i used to have them when i was FWD but i raise the rpms of course......good news i make a try and the car starts like rocket so i will leave it as it is for the moment.....i attach logs and a printscreen of how i set the LC & FFS ....





p.s. I`m waiting for Steve & Ugnius response to this?i hope they do not abandon us....

[phate]

Originally Posted by RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3 i have good news and bad news Bad news are that i check all the ignition realated tables and in that load i found nothing near -13 so i move on and disable the megaspool options for LC & FFS and i make them like i used to have them when i was FWD but i raise the rpms of course......good news i make a try and the car starts like rocket so i will leave it as it is for the moment.....i attach logs and a printscreen of how i set the LC & FFS ....

Good to hear you're able to launch it. My only other suggestion, since it looks like a shift related issue, is to try it with the 'smooth shift' toggle enabled. I believe it does some things to shift related timing tables, so there's a small chance it could fix this.



Can you take some video of the car ripping off the line with LC? I think @Realgib3; needs some proof, lol. [And we all want to see it, anyway.]

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Originally Posted by phate Good to hear you're able to launch it. My only other suggestion, since it looks like a shift related issue, is to try it with the 'smooth shift' toggle enabled. I believe it does some things to shift related timing tables, so there's a small chance it could fix this. Can you take some video of the car ripping off the line with LC? I think @Realgib3; needs some proof, lol. [And we all want to see it, anyway.]

i will, next time i will be out to make some tuning i guess next Tuesday ......

[Steve@VersaTune]

What are the MegaSpool settings that you were using? I'm wondering if you were hitting the NLS limiter. Also, did you have Smooth Shift enabled? It addresses timing retard on high load shifts.
Also, what is your mininimum timing set to?

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune What are the MegaSpool settings that you were using? I'm wondering if you were hitting the NLS limiter. Also, did you have Smooth Shift enabled? It addresses timing retard on high load shifts. Also, what is your mininimum timing set to?

hi,
my megaspool option was for LC 6600rpm -7ign and the NLS 7000rpm -12ign

I have not enabled the smooth shift setting for some reason i do not like the way it works when it is enabled

As for my minimum spark timing i have it as it is on 4 cylinders -13,5

[Steve@VersaTune]

Looking at the first log, you are seeing fuel cut well before you hit 6600. Are you sure your LC limiter was set at 6600? It looks like 6100 in the logs.

Some things to try:

enable smooth shift
set NLS retard at some extreme value like -30* so it's obvious if you're hitting this.
raise LC km/h threshold - it's possible that you're exceeding LC speed threshold before the clutch pedal switch is triggered. You are going from 0 to 12 km/h between the two clutch pedal samples showing disengaged and engaged.

I may need to rewrite the LC/NLS speed check to accommodate hard launching cars.

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune Looking at the first log, you are seeing fuel cut well before you hit 6600. Are you sure your LC limiter was set at 6600? It looks like 6100 in the logs. Some things to try: enable smooth shift set NLS retard at some extreme value like -30* so it's obvious if you're hitting this. raise LC km/h threshold - it's possible that you're exceeding LC speed threshold before the clutch pedal switch is triggered. You are going from 0 to 12 km/h between the two clutch pedal samples showing disengaged and engaged. I may need to rewrite the LC/NLS speed check to accommodate hard launching cars.

I have tried all these options nothing worked.I also try to launch without megaspool option enabled and i some times was able to launch some other the same bog(nothiing changed between the 2 tries).So i think you should deffinetlly check what is going on with the high revs and launch control i think that there might be some issue...Especially for my car that it is launching hard is a very big problem ,because after every bog i really stress my t-case.

[phate]

We were launching at 4500 rpm the past two events and it works great. I can try bumping it up for testing this issue.

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

At 4500rpm i m sure it launches great, try above 6500rpm.are you using megaspool??

[phate]

Originally Posted by RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3 At 4500rpm i m sure it launches great, try above 6500rpm.are you using megaspool??

Megaspool @ 4500 rpm, yes. We haven't gone up with it because it just blows the tires off if we try hitting it too hard

[Steve@VersaTune]

Try setting the unk1 and unk2 rev limiters to 7000 or something above what you expect to hit while launching. One of those is the extreme cold operating limiter, the other I suspect may be a neutral rev limiter or something. I will keep looking at the code to see what all the flags are that need to be set to trip it.

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune Try setting the unk1 and unk2 rev limiters to 7000 or something above what you expect to hit while launching. One of those is the extreme cold operating limiter, the other I suspect may be a neutral rev limiter or something. I will keep looking at the code to see what all the flags are that need to be set to trip it.

I have set them always to 8000rpm...If you want i can send you my tune just in case i miss something.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune Looking at the first log, you are seeing fuel cut well before you hit 6600. Are you sure your LC limiter was set at 6600? It looks like 6100 in the logs. Some things to try: enable smooth shift set NLS retard at some extreme value like -30* so it's obvious if you're hitting this. raise LC km/h threshold - it's possible that you're exceeding LC speed threshold before the clutch pedal switch is triggered. You are going from 0 to 12 km/h between the two clutch pedal samples showing disengaged and engaged. I may need to rewrite the LC/NLS speed check to accommodate hard launching cars.

Considering that it looks like he has the LC RPM limiters set above required values this seems the most promising place to look. LC speed threshold. I believe he says the bog only happens sometimes so he may be right on the LC speed logic bubble so to speak.

Great track prep, tire heat/pressure, driver control = too much speed = bog. so so track prep, tire heat/pressure, driver control = not enough speed = no bog.

[Steve@VersaTune]

Looking at this again, it looks like you're hitting the NLS limiter. You launch with LC then quickly exceed the 1.2 mph threshold for LC before the clutch is all the way out and switch to the lower NLS limiter. I suspect others have not hit this because most have a much bigger gap between the LC RPM and NLS RPM or a higher speed threshold for LC.

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune Looking at this again, it looks like you're hitting the NLS limiter. You launch with LC then quickly exceed the 1.2 mph threshold for LC before the clutch is all the way out and switch to the lower NLS limiter. I suspect others have not hit this because most have a much bigger gap between the LC RPM and NLS RPM or a higher speed threshold for LC.

So Steve what you thing will be the solution for that problem.I have set the LC mp/h thresold to 10mp/h but nothing changed

[Steve@VersaTune]

I am working on a new beta with some new tables exposed. It should be ready early next week.

[Steve@VersaTune]

The new Beta is ready to go.

[RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Steve@VersaTune The new Beta is ready to go.

I can not wait to be back to road for testing!!!!!

[Mazdazilla6]

What was the fix for this? I'm bogging pretty hard using megaspool. LC is 6100 rpm and -20*. NLS is 8000 rpm.

[Steve@VersaTune]

We added the absolute rev limiters to allow >8000 RPM and exposed all shift related torque limiters.

Adjusting the actuation point of the clutch pedal position sensor appears to help too.

[Mazdazilla6]

So you think it's a torque limiter causing the bog?

[Steve@VersaTune]

If you're still in LC mode while the clutch is partially engaged but before the clutch pedal position switch is actuated, it will bog. This is most likely the issue. There is a thread somewhere discussing this. Drill a small hole in the CPP sensor and put a screw in it to allow adjustment of the actuation point.

RE-ACTIONENGSPEED3 was also going > 8000 rpm which hit a separate rev limiter. We exposed that limiter as the absolute rev limiter.

[Mazdazilla6]

I'll give it a shot and report back how it goes.

Edit: Just to make sure I'm getting this straight. The reason for the screw is to make the car think the clutch is still down (engaged) so it won't shut off megaspool prematurely? @Steve@VersaTune;