How to integrate the Guardian Angel with a WMI Failsafe

[ItsNox]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble El oh El, Coolingmist's instructions from the CMSG and failsafe are literally among the worst I have read. The wiring diagram looks like a 12 year old did it in Office 95, and it's way to overly complex explaining the parameters with typos galore. Hey @Lex; one of the only things I am uncertain of, is their explanation of the failsafe wire from the CMSG (which will go to the Guardian Angel) and its parameter settings: 000 Normally Open (Default) 001 Normally Closed 002 Normally Open (closed when MIN set point reached) ** YOU MUST SET THIS IF YOU DON’T HAVE THE FSB AND WANT TO USE A SOLENOID. THIS WILL GROUND THE SOLENOID AT MIN BOOST 003 Normally Open (closed when MAX set point reached) I am guessing 'normally open' = signal level low (i.e. 0v) and when it triggers a failsafe then signal level goes high (i.e. +5v)? What a terrible explanation.

@Jonathanhair07;

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[England15j]

I have mine set to the following.

Parameter 1 is 4 for pump duty cycle

Parameter 2 is 0 for boost

Parameter 3 is 0 for duty cycle

Parameter 4 is 2 for failsafe auto

Parameter 5 is 0 for normally open

Parameter 9 is 20 for low 0-59% duty cycle sensitivity

Parameter 10 is 3 for more sensitivity for 60-100% duty cycle

I have the yellow wire going into a relay and output set to the GA

[dale_gribble]

Wait, can't the yellow wire drive the Guardian Angel directly? Why did you need a relay?

[England15j]

From @Lex;
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1442076772.394002.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1442076783.747209.jpg

[dale_gribble]

Got it thanks. Which relay?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Got it thanks. Which relay?

The V1 GA was triggered only by a positive voltage signal (going above 3V). On the V2 GA the GA is triggered by a signal going both high OR being pulled to ground. We did this to make it more universally compatible.

[dale_gribble]

@Lex; is there a relay you recommend for v1? (Unless you want to send me v2)

[Lex]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble @Lex; is there a relay you recommend for v1? (Unless you want to send me v2)

Any automotive relay will do. No current rating is needed, you are just looking for a voltage at the GA trigger.

[Turbo_Steve]

This is what I plan to use.
Water Methanol, Low Flow Safety Switch

[dale_gribble]

Originally Posted by Turbo_Steve This is what I plan to use. Water Methanol, Low Flow Safety Switch

Probably not a coincidence that that unit looks EXACTLY like the snow safe injection unit. Same unit.

[dale_gribble]

Originally Posted by England15j From @Lex; Attachment 211239 Attachment 211240

@Lex; can you please specifically map these drawings to the pins on a relay so I don't make a mistake here? i.e. input from CMGS to relay pin 85, output to GA pin 87, +12v to pins 86/30? Please confirm wires to/from relay and which relay pins please.

[England15j]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble @Lex; can you please specifically map these drawings to the pins on a relay so I don't make a mistake here? i.e. input from CMGS to relay pin 85, output to GA pin 87, +12v to pins 86/30? Please confirm wires to/from relay and which relay pins please.

You have it 100% correct
I always use this for reference
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1443043524.137295.jpg

[dale_gribble]

Got it, ok, so on a relay, to turn a negative trigger to a positive 12v, the trigger output (30) and 12V input (87) are reversible since the relay is closing and connecting the 12v between the pins regardless of which is 30 and which is 87. Is that correct? That might alleviate some of my confusion since I've seen them wired both ways in online examples.

Does that also mean that the control coil pins (85, 86) are also reversible or does the voltage only intended to go 1 way (i.e. polarized)? Basically the control coil will work as long as voltage is applied to the coil, and the switch will close connecting 30 and 87.

[Lex]

A relay is a current triggered switch. So the coil end you can run a small amount of current to trigger the actual switch. Since the V1 GA needs a high signal to be tripped, on the switch side of the relay you connect 12V on one end and the GA on another. On the coil side you connect 12V on one end and the device that pulls to ground when the WMI fault is detected. So when the WMI failsafe triggers to ground, it closes the switch the GA is sitting on and the GA trigger sees 12V. This trips the GA.

[mazdakaps]

one question about the snow performance failsafe. It triggers but logs give me rich afr as it should since i need to maf cal and low BATs. I used different sets and it still triggers . Now it is set with the lowest flow setting and the highest latency. This means that the flow sensor is dead?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by mazdakaps one question about the snow performance failsafe. It triggers but logs give me rich afr as it should since i need to maf cal and low BATs. I used different sets and it still triggers . Now it is set with the lowest flow setting and the highest latency. This means that the flow sensor is dead?

Have you contacted snow to ask? They know their system best.

[rolliepollie07]

Currently trying to install a GA v2 with a SP meth kit and SP failsafe. Sooooo confused on the install does the minimum flow rate need to be bumped up depending on the nozzle size? Currently have issues with the GA not responding so I suppose I have that to address first.

[neganox]

As per Snow.

The left dial on the SafeInjection® unit controls the lowest allowed flow. It
is adjustable from 100ML/MN to 600ML/MN. The dial is set to
100ML/MN when it is turned fully counter-clockwise. It is set to
600ML/MN when it is turned fully clockwise. Be very gentle when
adjusting the dials, as they are very precise and do not require excessive
force. Many systems function below 600ML/MN. A 175 nozzle will flow
250 ML/MN at nominal pump pressure for example.

Adjustable Delay
The SafeInjection® unit has a user adjustable delay that can be used to
control the speed at which the trigger signal is activated. The delay is
adjustable from 0.1 seconds (full counter clockwise) to 1.5 seconds (full
clockwise). This delay prevents a 12V signal from being sent during a slow
ramp up of injection or when injection is gradually being reduced.

You need to adjust the minimum allowed flow based on the flow of your nozzle. Additionally this failsafe is really only for MAX flow numbers as it does not and cannot take into account variable pump voltage / nozzle flow. Thus the delay adjustment knob.

What psi are you spraying 100%? What psi is your starting point?

[rolliepollie07]

Ohhh that does clear up things a little. I'm using their red nozzle with is 625? Flow rate I think. So I need to bump up the dial to way up. I left it as it came from factory. So it's at no delay and about minimum rate. My start psi is roughly 9.5-10 and my max flow is by 20 psi I believe. I have to double check that. So I suppose my controller was just set too low. But I still have to figure out why my GA was tripping out easily no matter where my dial was set.

[neganox]

If there is no delay set then you're at 0.1 seconds for the reading.. that's too short of a time span for any methanol to start flowing. The safeinjection unit has a physical flow sensor (GEM flow sensor). So the safeinjection unit is going to activate when your pump activates, wait for the specified delay time, query the flow sensor for the flow rate, and then compare the actual flow rate with the rate specified on the safeinjection module.

I'd allow for some variance. Maybe set the delay to max and the flow to the middle. Snow's controller knobs suck and aren't accurate at all regardless of what their documentation says.

[rolliepollie07]

Well damn I feel like I did the install correctly. That's a major relief. I'll try that. After that's sorted I think I'll try the relay method to be the trigger. I really appreciate your help I tried the Facebook forums and I got zero help. It makes sense when you put it that way. Because as soon as I say my green light for meth kick on. The yellow light failsafe came on and shut it down.


Sent from my big fat booty

[mazdakaps]

Originally Posted by Lex Have you contacted snow to ask? They know their system best.

Yes i did contact them but didnt get any reply yet

Originally Posted by neganox As per Snow. The left dial on the SafeInjection® unit controls the lowest allowed flow. It is adjustable from 100ML/MN to 600ML/MN. The dial is set to 100ML/MN when it is turned fully counter-clockwise. It is set to 600ML/MN when it is turned fully clockwise. Be very gentle when adjusting the dials, as they are very precise and do not require excessive force. Many systems function below 600ML/MN. A 175 nozzle will flow 250 ML/MN at nominal pump pressure for example. Adjustable Delay The SafeInjection® unit has a user adjustable delay that can be used to control the speed at which the trigger signal is activated. The delay is adjustable from 0.1 seconds (full counter clockwise) to 1.5 seconds (full clockwise). This delay prevents a 12V signal from being sent during a slow ramp up of injection or when injection is gradually being reduced. You need to adjust the minimum allowed flow based on the flow of your nozzle. Additionally this failsafe is really only for MAX flow numbers as it does not and cannot take into account variable pump voltage / nozzle flow. Thus the delay adjustment knob. What psi are you spraying 100%? What psi is your starting point?

On my part i used the 625 nozzle. I have to say that the system worked at first but recently this problem started for now reason. I turned the flow setting to the lowest point counter clockwise and the delay at the highest clockwise. I have to check for any leaks but at the log it seems that meth sprays so maybe the safe injection flow sensor is failing?

[neganox]

Originally Posted by mazdakaps On my part i used the 625 nozzle. I have to say that the system worked at first but recently this problem started for now reason. I turned the flow setting to the lowest point counter clockwise and the delay at the highest clockwise. I have to check for any leaks but at the log it seems that meth sprays so maybe the safe injection flow sensor is failing?

Do you have the safeinjection gauge as well? Does it read when the meth is flowing?

[rolliepollie07]

Well since I had the delay set as low as possible and the dial to low meth would not have a chance to be read. So I'll have to answer that soon.


Sent from my big fat booty

[mazdakaps]

Originally Posted by neganox Do you have the safeinjection gauge as well? Does it read when the meth is flowing?

No i dont have the safeinjection gauge unfortunately. I only guess that it works from the logs

[ItsNox]

Just got done reading through this thread again. Such an invaluable resource. Thanks guys.

@dale_gribble; How is that CMGS setup playing with the Gurdian Angel? Im in the market for the GA and the CMGS that youre running. The stage 3 Autolearn kit including the Fail Safe Box. Thoughts/suggestions?

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[dale_gribble]

Hey @ItsNox;

The setup is playing well together. Remember that you need to run a relay from the CMGS failsafe box output to the input of the GA. I think it's documented here. However, I think the new GA might be able to get a trigger from ground or + signal now. @Lex;?

I have found that the autolearn part of that failsafe box doesn't autolearn well. There's 2 ways to calibrate the failsafe box pump current monitoring: 1) Let the FSB autolearn or 2) Set the system to manual learn and run the controller/pump through 0-100% duty cycle with the nozzle out of the car and spraying into a bucket or something. The CMGS has a test mode (Configuration 6) that makes this very easy.

In autolearn (calibration mode 1), my car never autolearned. After weeks and weeks, it wouldn't calibrate. I emailed coolingmist owner and he kind of in a roundabout way said that the autolearn isn't reliable and to do calibration mode 2.

In calibration mode 2, where it's manual and you cycle the pump through 0-100%, it learns all of the stages within a matter of a minute. So, it calibrates quick and it's good to test the system anyways.

I have had a few triggers and it triggers the GA reliably.

[ItsNox]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Hey @ItsNox; The setup is playing well together. Remember that you need to run a relay from the CMGS failsafe box output to the input of the GA. I think it's documented here. However, I think the new GA might be able to get a trigger from ground or + signal now. @Lex;? I have found that the autolearn part of that failsafe box doesn't autolearn well. There's 2 ways to calibrate the failsafe box pump current monitoring: 1) Let the FSB autolearn or 2) Set the system to manual learn and run the controller/pump through 0-100% duty cycle with the nozzle out of the car and spraying into a bucket or something. The CMGS has a test mode (Configuration 6) that makes this very easy. In autolearn (calibration mode 1), my car never autolearned. After weeks and weeks, it wouldn't calibrate. I emailed coolingmist owner and he kind of in a roundabout way said that the autolearn isn't reliable and to do calibration mode 2. In calibration mode 2, where it's manual and you cycle the pump through 0-100%, it learns all of the stages within a matter of a minute. So, it calibrates quick and it's good to test the system anyways. I have had a few triggers and it triggers the GA reliably.

I appreciate the feedback man, thanks. Yea i rememeber that now about the relay. That was near the end and near me falling asleep last night. Ill read it again to confirm unless @Lex; confirms before.

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[neganox]

Looks like I'll be running the autolearn in mode 2 now. I was wondering why my duty cycle lights weren't lighting up on start up.

[ItsNox]

@Lex; - Can the GA be wired into an AEM Wideband O2 failsafe?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by ItsNox @Lex; - Can the GA be wired into an AEM Wideband O2 failsafe?

Yes should work if the output is either pulled high or low when triggered by the failsafe.