2010+ Mazdaspeed 3 performance air intake discussion

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak I wouldn't get a cold air intake unless you're 100% certain you want one - the difference in gains isn't that great because the air is getting heated up anyway when the turbo compresses it. I'd save the money and put it towards a TMIC or FMIC which will make a bigger difference in BATs.

I must respectfully take serious issue with this all too common misunderstanding. There are many valid reasons to choose SRI over CAI or CAI over SRI, but this notion that "the air is getting heated up anyway when the turbo compresses it" crap is just flat wrong. Sorry for the tough love. It's a common mistake and it is wrong.

Ambient air temp (the temperature of the air as it enters from either outside the car or from the engine bay) has a significant effect on boost air tempeature going to the engine.

Where the "it gets heated up anyway" argument falls apart is from lack of understanding of what is actually taking place. Yes, the turbo compresses the air and compressed air heats up. It heats up dramatically. The intercooler tries to cool it back down. But intercoolers are not as efficient as people may think, so there is less than complete restoration of ambient temperature by the time the boosted air leaves the cool side of the intercooler.

Accordingly BAT (boost air temperature) is higher and sometimes a great deal higher than ambient. You want to keep BAT as low as possible and this begins with avoiding situations that raise ambient air temperature.

So, here is the main point: For every single degree that ambient temperature goes up, the compressed boosted temperature is going to be that same number of degrees higher also. Example: If ambient temp is 60 degrees F. and underhood temp is 80 degrees F., then that 20 degree difference is still going to show up after the turbo compressor squeezes the air to produce boost and even after the intercooler does its work to try to bring it back down.

Why does this matter? Because for every 10 degree increase in ambient temperature there is going to be an approximate 1% loss in horsepower based on standardized and widely accepted experimentation and the formulas developed from that. Now this may not seem like much, but temperatures under the hood of a car can easily reach 130-140 degrees in a pretty short period of time after the engine warms up. That can result in as much as an 80 degree increase over ambient. On a 300 horsepoer engine that is a whopping 24 horses.. That means you've lost the entire benefit of your aftermarket intake and then some. Even at a mere 30 degree difference, that is 10 horses down the drain.

This temperature differential remains in place all the way through the intake tract and actually widens due to the inability of the intercooler to operate at anything close to 100% efficiency. It does not disappear during the heat up of the turbo compressor or cool down of the intercooler.

To be clear, once the car is moving and fresh air comes in, underhood ambient temps can fall pretty quickly (20-30 seconds). But until that happens, power is down.

Now, for most driving situations, this is more of an academic discussion than a real world one. That's why the CAI v. SRI debate is mostly useless. But it matters a good bit if you sit in traffic a lot. It can matter when you are sitting in the staging lanes at the drag strip.

Both SRI and CAI are good choices. There are many reasons one user may favor one over another. But one of those reasons is NOT that "the air gets heated up anyway when the turbo compresses it." If there is a 40 degree difference in air temp going into the turbo, there will be a 40 degree difference in temp coming out of it. So choose whichever type of intake you like for a reason that makes sense to you, but don't use the quoted reasoning in making the decision.

[MS33SM]

tl;dr

hp difference is minimal and there is risk with a CAI like this thread: *HELP* Sucked in water

[MSMS3]

^ I hope you understand that I am not renewing the largely senseless and useless CAI vs. SRI arguments. I made that very clear if you read the entire post. What I am saying is that "the air heats up anyway" as an excuse is not scientifically supportable, and that ambient temps (whether from air coming from the left fenderwell or around the SRI location) do matter.

[indianaryan]

Bottom line is that the SRI is safer, and any gains in performance from a CAI are probably not noticeable. The same can be said in a comparison between an oiled filter and a dry filter.

[MSMS3]

I have tried to avoid this "safer" stuff and did NOT want to have this degenerate into a "my filter/intake/location/shape" beauty contest. I really have in the above posts and elsewhere.

I am 60 years old. I've owned many, many high performance cars and modded them over a career going back to my first musclecar in 1970. I've run off road lifted Jeeps in mud for years. I've used just about every kind of intake configuration you can imagine. I live on the Mississippi Gulf Coast where we get a LOT of rain, some of it in the form of 20 foot hurricane surges. I have had both SRI and CAI intakes and have used both dry and oiled filters. I have never experienced hydrolock on anything. Not on my own vehicles or on anyone else in any car club or off road club. I have laid a jeep on its side in mud. The intake (a K&N filter on top of a Weber carb) went under water). It just killed the engine from lack of oxygen. We righted the jeep, pulled the wet filter off, started the engine and drove it off.

I've seen numerous other vehicles with soaked filters. They just stopped running. No water ever got past the filter and no damage done to any of them. This hydrolock hysteria is about as senseless to me as the "compressed air gets hot" argument.

Can you hydrolock an engine? Especially a boosted and intercooled one? Yes, if you are stupid enough to go through very deep water at WOT and produce enough vacuum to both fill up the filter and pull that water all the way through the intake to get to the turbo compressor, then after that water has ben vaporized, through the intercooler, cooled back down to water and finally into the engine. I guess anything is possible and if you try hard enough and are stupid enough in your driving habits you can hydrolock a turbocharged and intercooled engine before it shuts down from lack of oxygen.

Nor have I ever experienced a maf failure or malfunction from an oiled filter. I've been running K&N filters on many different vehicles for about 30+ years now. The cleanable dry filter on my MSCAI is the first filter of its type I've used. I would not have hesitated to purchase the intake with an oiled filter if it had come that way.

Now, if you want to get a SRI because it is generally cheaper, that's a valid reason. If you want to get one because it is easier to access for cleaning, that's a valid reason. If you want to get one because it comes with or has available a "matching' TIP, that would be a valid reason. Differences in sound level, or whether you can hear your bpv/bov better, might matter to some. There are others, just as there are many valid reasons someone might choose a CAI.

But risk of hydrolock is like risk of getting struck by lightning (and you can put a hydroshield sock on if if your really obsessed about it). And the "air gets heated up" argument is just bad science.

BTW: attached are two photos. One shows a 32 degree differential between underhood temp right at the maf sensor compared to ambient after only four minutes of sitting at idle from a cold start. The other shows where the remote sensor was located next to the maf sensor.

[MS33SM]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 ^ I hope you understand that I am not renewing the largely senseless and useless CAI vs. SRI arguments. I made that very clear if you read the entire post. What I am saying is that "the air heats up anyway" as an excuse is not scientifically supportable, and that ambient temps (whether from air coming from the left fenderwell or around the SRI location) do matter.

The TMIC on our cars is efficient enough to negate any difference in intake air temp while the car is moving.

To your last post: I don't drive my car sitting still so the 32 degree difference is a moot point.

[BLK_MS3]

I just read the thread on the SURE SRI trims being out of wack. On a stock car, meaning no tune, what SRI is proven to have the best trims and not throw a code? CP-E I assume?

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 Now, if you want to get a SRI because it is generally cheaper, that's a valid reason. If you want to get one because it is easier to access for cleaning, that's a valid reason. If you want to get one because it comes with or has available a "matching' TIP, that would be a valid reason. Differences in sound level, or whether you can hear your bpv/bov better, might matter to some. There are others, just as there are many valid reasons someone might choose a CAI.

Those are exactly the reasons I won't get a CAI. I know that hydrolock and oil getting on the MAF sensor are very rare, and there is probably a bit of stupidity involved if this happens to someone. Like you said, a CAI with an oiled filter is not a bad thing. I just can't justify the price for one.

BTW, thanks for your input. It's extremely helpful to hear from someone who has the experience that you do. Much more helpful than "CAI's are better than SRI's" or "Oiled filters are better than dry filters", etc. There are pro's and con's with every option, and that's what makes this a good discussion.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by MS33SM The TMIC on our cars is efficient enough to negate any difference in intake air temp while the car is moving. To your last post: I don't drive my car sitting still so the 32 degree difference is a moot point.

Can you support either of these statements? How long does it take to "negate" the difference "while" the car is moving?

You do know that the 32 degree difference was with the engine starting cold, don't you? Once it gets fully up to temperature that difference is going to be way, way greater. Would you like to know what underhood temps are after a little stop and go driving after warm up? How about 160 or more.

Would you like to know how long it takes for those temps to be "negated" after a stop at a redlight and you then start moving again? At least 20-30 seconds.

I made it clear that most of the time the differences will be slight. On a fully warmed up engine stopped in traffic, especially if there is more than one light cycle as encountered in many driving situations, the difference is pretty eye-opening.

[16-driver]

Well, withe car moving at, let's say 50 mph, wouldn't you thing that the cooling of air coming and going from under the car, the grill, as well as the intercooler would have enough difference in IAT?

[BLK_MS3]

Originally Posted by indianaryan oil getting on the MAF sensor are very rare, and there is probably a bit of stupidity involved if this happens to someone. "Oiled filters are better than dry filters"

It is not very rare, it is common on many fronts. LS1Tech had a huge thread about it. Search if you don't believe myself and some of the others which you don't seem to. I am offering advise. I have been working on cars for some 20 years and have built engines and done cam swaps. Maybe 5% of the members in here can say that. It doesn't take "stupidity" as you call it for it to happen either. Just following the re-oiling instructions can make the oil be excessive enough to get on and cause damage to the MAF.

Also dry filters ARE safer and better then oiled ones. Hence why many intake companies are offering both, or just dry. Even if there is a CHANCE of oil getting on your MAF why chance it? There is nothing to gain by an oiled filter....

[guitarist302008]

Originally Posted by BLK MS3 I just read the thread on the SURE SRI trims being out of wack. On a stock car, meaning no tune, what SRI is proven to have the best trims and not throw a code? CP-E I assume?

Mine hasn't thrown a code yet lol

[ridenfish39]

Originally Posted by guitarist302008 Mine hasn't thrown a code yet lol

See, all that worrying for nothing

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by BLK MS3 It is not very rare, it is common on many fronts. LS1Tech had a huge thread about it. It doesn't take "stupidity" as you call it for it to happen either. Just following the re-oiling instructions can make the oil be excessive enough to get on and cause damage to the MAF. And dry filter ARE better then oiled ones. Hence why many intake companies are offering both, or just dry. Even if there is a CHANCE of oil getting on you MAF why chance it? There is nothing to gain by a oiled filter....

I've never had a problem with any of the oiled filters that I've used in the past, even after re-oil. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, as I haven't had one on my MS3. But it's hard to believe that K&N would still be in business if so many people were having problems.

You can't say that dry filter ARE better than oiled ones. Oiled filters usually will allow more airflow. That is one advantage. There are disadvantages that come with that. For example, an oiled filter might not filter as much dirt as a dry one.

It comes down to preference really.

EDIT: I also never said that oiled filters are better than dry filters. Not sure why you added that to the quoted part of your post.

[skawt01]

FWIW, I've owned 4 different K&N oiled filter intakes and have had zero MAF problems. I live in a dusty agricultural area so I have to clean/re-oil the filters frequently...still no problems.

Also, why are people concerned w/ heated engine bay air and power loss while idling in traffic anyway? It's not like you need that power til you're actually moving and have cold air flow again, right?

[novice_01]

Originally Posted by guitarist302008 Mine hasn't thrown a code yet lol

Mine hasn't thrown a CEL as well, but I keep getting pending code under certaing conditions, how are your fuel trims?

[Click Here]

Originally Posted by BLK MS3 It is not very rare, it is common on many fronts. LS1Tech had a huge thread about it. Search if you don't believe myself and some of the others which you don't seem to. I am offering advise. I have been working on cars for some 20 years and have built engines and done cam swaps. Maybe 5% of the members in here can say that. It doesn't take "stupidity" as you call it for it to happen either. Just following the re-oiling instructions can make the oil be excessive enough to get on and cause damage to the MAF. Also dry filters ARE safer and better then oiled ones. Hence why many intake companies are offering both, or just dry. Even if there is a CHANCE of oil getting on your MAF why chance it? There is nothing to gain by an oiled filter....

Can you explain to me how oil could damage a MAF sensor? I've seen this claim thrown around a million times (as have the K&N folk: K&N Response to Mass Air Flow Sensor Concerns) but no one has ever explained in detail how the sensor fails beyond repair when it comes in contact with oil.

[BLK_MS3]

Originally Posted by Click Here Can you explain to me how oil could damage a MAF sensor? I've seen this claim thrown around a million times (as have the K&N folk: K&N Response to Mass Air Flow Sensor Concerns) but no one has ever explained in detail how the sensor fails beyond repair when it comes in contact with oil.

I'm sure it is different for different cars but on the LSx MAF's it does damage them. On LS1Tech is how I found out about it. I have a buddy who ran into this issue. On his the oil got caked up inside and around the tiny diodes on the MAF. He tried to clean them with electronics cleaner which is what K&N told him to do. While it cleaned them up visually, we still couldn't get 100% perfect readings via HP Tuners. We swapped out to a new MAF, issue solved. I know of at least 7 people who have had this issue. Not saying it will always happen, it is hit or miss for sure. K&N wrote that just to try to save face, it was posted years back on LS1Tech. All I would do is recommended using a dry filter over oiled. That way you have no chance of the oil issue, and they actually tend to filter a tad better. But, this is the good 'ol USA so use whatever you prefer.

[BlueDmnSpeed]

AEM CAI with a Cobb TIP. probably gonna switch to Cobb SRI when i get home from deployment though. current setup isn't bad though

[Click Here]

Originally Posted by BLK MS3 I'm sure it is different for different cars but on the LSx MAF's it does damage them. On LS1Tech is how I found out about it. I have a buddy who ran into this issue. On his the oil got caked up inside and around the tiny diodes on the MAF. He tried to clean them with electronics cleaner which is what K&N told him to do. While it cleaned them up visually, we still couldn't get 100% perfect readings via HP Tuners. We swapped out to a new MAF, issue solved. I know of at least 7 people who have had this issue. Not saying it will always happen, it is hit or miss for sure. K&N wrote that just to try to save face, it was posted years back on LS1Tech. All I would do is recommended using a dry filter over oiled. That way you have no chance of the oil issue, and they actually tend to filter a tad better. But, this is the good 'ol USA so use whatever you prefer.

That's more or less what I never understood...the MAF just consists of a thermistor and a metal wire, so, I never understood how oil could make those two items just fail? I believe you when you say you know people that this happened to, but I just find it strange.

Thanks for the explanation.

[MSMS3]

Originally Posted by 16-driver Well, withe car moving at, let's say 50 mph, wouldn't you thing that the cooling of air coming and going from under the car, the grill, as well as the intercooler would have enough difference in IAT?

"Enough" difference? Well, if you are sitting in the staging lanes at the strip just trying to avoid heat soak to begin with and have a hot engine bay to contend with, trying to fiddle around with hood up or hood down and all that crap, and then also find yourself 20 horses down at the line when launching because you're sucking hot air rather than cooler outside air, it can matter. By the time you get up enough speed to push some cool air into the engine and get any power benefit from that, the damn race is over.

Same thing pulling away from a stop light. I know NONE of you guys would EVER do any stop light racing, right? Let that sucker heat up on you and then find yourself trying to recover from the power loss.

Or, even under more "normal" conditions if your car feels "doggy" and you can't understand why you don't seem to have the throttle response after sitting in traffic for a while when pulling away, then maybe it matters.

It's bad enough to be doggy from a dig because of fwd issues. We don't need to be adding heat induced power loss to it from sucking 160 degree underhood air.

Yeah, out on the open road at 50 mph after optimizing the air coming in through the hood, I agree, there would be little or no difference, although the attachment below suggests that even on dyno days with big fans blowing and the hood up, IAT's are higher with SRI's than with a true CAI. One more reason to race only from a 40 mph or higher roll - no fwd traction problems AND no superheated engine bay air.,

Have you ever wondered why so many performance car manufacturers, expecially very high performance cars, almost universally have cold air intakes from the factory pulling the air in from a fender well or an outside intake in the front of the car? They could save money and increase profits by just hanging a filter out there by the MAF housing in the hot engine bay and calling it a day.

Oh, and one major player in forced induction market - Kenne Bell, will not warranty their superchargers unless the engine has a true outside cold air system. See attachment.

Call me silly. Call me old fashioned. Yeah, CAI does cost more. Yeah it is a little harder to get to the filter. Yeah, maybe it sounds a little more muted. Yeah, maybe it doesn't have the eye candy bling you are looking for. Yeah, maybe it doesn't let some owner's bov/bpv make the fart sounds he likes best. But for me, even if the performance difference is minimal, I want all the edge I can get.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

So are ther noticeable advantages to using a ram air intake (gen 2)? I mean it seems there would be, especially w a hood scoop and somewhat of a sealed enclosure, but one thing I've learned in my 6 months of actually trying to learn about my car is that things often aren't as obvious as they seem.

To clarify, what I'm saying is, it seems that this, along with a FMIC would almost eliminate heat soak. Now, if this were true, I'm sure a lot more people would be running this set up, so I must be missing part of the equation. My question is, what am I missing?

[tddvrrn]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 " Call me silly. Call me old fashioned. Yeah, CAI does cost more. Yeah it is a little harder to get to the filter. Yeah, maybe it sounds a little more muted. Yeah, maybe it doesn't have the eye candy bling you are looking for. Yeah, maybe it doesn't let some owner's bov/bpv make the fart sounds he likes best. But for me, even if the performance difference is minimal, I want all the edge I can get.

you know what i love about you? you made a reasoned decision based on facts and are sticking to it. you are clear and thorough in your explanations. and you are precise with language.

doing things properly ftw! sorry, that was too funny not to type.

truly though, you are a stand up man and i salute you!
thanks for truly 'keeping it real' around these parts!

[Silver Ecstasy]

I like how this "resourceful" thread turned into a bitchfest. When's clean-up time for all these posts?

[2010Speed3]

^ It's better than a bunch of people who can't make up their mind about what intake to get...

[Silver Ecstasy]

Originally Posted by 2010Speed3 ^ It's better than a bunch of people who can't make up their mind about what intake to get...

How's that better than the original purpose of the thread? - to post your experience with your particular intake. This cai vs sri has been beaten to death already since the beginning of rice...

[indianaryan]

I think this thread was really meant for people to share their experiences with the intake(s) that they've tried on their car. We need some more of that. Who has gotten CEL's, how the intakes have held up, etc.

[bradboyd80]

I'm running the Injen CAI. Great fitment, and absolutely zero CEL. Used it for about 7k miles on my Gen1, and 2k on my Gen2 now. Based on the design, I really don't understand all the talk about the hydrolocking either. You would have to drive through at least 2 ft of water in order to completely submerge the intake filter. If you're stupid enough to try that, then hydrolocking your car is probably the least of your worries.

[indianaryan]

Originally Posted by bradboyd80 I'm running the Injen CAI. Great fitment, and absolutely zero CEL. Used it for about 7k miles on my Gen1, and 2k on my Gen2 now. Based on the design, I really don't understand all the talk about the hydrolocking either. You would have to drive through at least 2 ft of water in order to completely submerge the intake filter. If you're stupid enough to try that, then hydrolocking your car is probably the least of your worries.

Any thoughts on how it performs? How much did it run you?

[tddvrrn]

Originally Posted by Silver Ecstasy I like how this "resourceful" thread turned into a bitchfest. When's clean-up time for all these posts?

it has turned into a bit of a butter battle (dr. suess anyone?), but i do feel that msms3 has put some really good info out there. his posts are fair and balanced and do a lot to keep the science of intakes just that, a science. anecdotal evidence (yeah, i have a pg sri and it works great, no cels..) is good to a certain extent, but understanding the theory behind how this whole thing works will let us all make better decisions later on. real data provides tools for us to understand what we are trying to make a decision on. critical thinking is fun!

so while his and the other well thought out posts might not be the sri compatability thread this was started to be, real info is never a bad thing. inane posts stating someone is a 'fag' or they 'suck' because you disagree with them don't help anyone. thankfully this thread has not devolved into that, y'all are keeping it civil, but i've seen enough threads head that way..

don't be afraid of data! even if it is only marginally applicable to the conversation at hand


t

[bradboyd80]

Originally Posted by indianaryan Any thoughts on how it performs? How much did it run you?

HUGE difference. According to their dyno, you're supposed to gain something like 30whp. My butt-dyno sure feels the difference so I'm sure its not off by much. I spent $250 on it.

[MSMS3]

ANY aftermarket intake compared to stock is an absolute no-brainer. Do it. Whether you go SRI or CAI the gains will be substantial, typically 15-20 whp on an honest dyno. Without that extra air flow on the intake side, you really can't take advantage of the benefits on down the road of opening up the restrictions on the exhaust side - the low flow cats and the poorly designed emissions nanny stock downpipe. An engine is a pump. It takes air and fuel in, produces power and the pushes the byproduct out the exhaust. To make more power you have to increase that flow.

The difference between SRI and CAI pertains to the operating conditions in which the air is entering the engine. Assuming you can equalize those conditions and end up with the same boost air temperature, either one should produce that 15-20 whp bump up in power.

BTW: The MSCAI I run is just a rebranded AEM CAI. No CEL's. Excellent fitment and finish. High quality apperance and construction. Put it on about a month after buying the car. This spring will be three years.

When Car and Driver and Road and Track each tested a 1st gen MS3 with the MSCAI, they saw a "before and after" dyno pull gain of 24 whp and 28 ft. lbs. of torque. Not saying it is better than other brands, just reporting that gains in this range should be possible from any good aftermarket intake at the same boost air temp, compared to stock.

[guitarist302008]

Originally Posted by MSMS3 ANY aftermarket intake compared to stock is an absolute no-brainer. Do it. Whether you go SRI or CAI the gains will be substantial, typically 15-20 whp on an honest dyno. Without that extra air flow on the intake side, you really can't take advantage of the benefits on down the road of opening up the restrictions on the exhaust side - the low flow cats and the poorly designed emissions nanny stock downpipe. An engine is a pump. It takes air and fuel in, produces power and the pushes the byproduct out the exhaust. To make more power you have to increase that flow. The difference between SRI and CAI pertains to the operating conditions in which the air is entering the engine. Assuming you can equalize those conditions and end up with the same boost air temperature, either one should produce that 15-20 whp bump up in power. BTW: The MSCAI I run is just a rebranded AEM CAI. No CEL's. Excellent fitment and finish. High quality apperance and construction. Put it on about a month after buying the car. This spring will be three years. When Car and Driver and Road and Track each tested a 1st gen MS3 with the MSCAI, they saw a "before and after" dyno pull gain of 24 whp and 28 ft. lbs. of torque. Not saying it is better than other brands, just reporting that gains in this range should be possible from any good aftermarket intake at the same boost air temp, compared to stock.

good info in all of your posts my friend... appreciate it.... very interesting.

[rfinkle2]

i'd like to add
1) the k&n that i go in the mail had machining for the maf that was a joke and ...
http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...-filter-70690/

[speed d3mon]

installed the cobb sri on my gen2 about 5k miles ago. it didnt throw a cel until about 2 weeks later and goes on and off. is it most likely just a leak? is this bad? im a noob

[novice_01]

Originally Posted by speed d3mon installed the cobb sri on my gen2 about 5k miles ago. it didnt throw a cel until about 2 weeks later and goes on and off. is it most likely just a leak? is this bad? im a noob

your LTFT might be jacked up, I read about Cobb SRI their fuel trims are quite high on this forum, might be just how the intake is designed/built (Not very well). You can check thread on Sure Aeros with my trims and almost getting CEL here Sure Aeros LTFT and STFT
and if you ready for some reading this thread http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...anymore-69143/
some good info, apparently some intakes are better than others

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

Let me try one more time here... Maybe u cam chime in MSMS3!

So I've tried googling it, but really not much out there. Does anybody have a clue if there are any real advantages to running a ram air (I am a gen2 with a hood scoop which has a shroud to seal it)?

I'm not looking for HP gain/loss speculation, just if there are any known benefits/disadvantages.

[Speed3eak]

^ Sorry I couldn't answer your post ck, I really have no idea of benefits/disadvantages of ram air. Only benefit I can think of is that the air might be pressurized the faster you go b/c the hoodscoop kinda acts like a funnel (or at least looks like one)

What I don't get is the "dry flow are better" part - The oil you put on filters carries with it a slight charge, so I don't understand how a charge-neutral filter is "better", only different.

Seriously you guys, this has become a huge subjective argument about what filters are better without a single shred of data collection - no flow bench figures (don't know if this applies to filters as much as Intake Manifolds and Exhaust manifolds), no figures showing a difference in maf g/s, or really anything confirming a single opinion on here (I do take exception to what Black MS3 said about lsx engines, he claims a lot of experience with those MAFs so I consider that valid... More so than anything else you guys are saying)

A mod seriously needs to delete some posts in this thread - important information is:

Intake comparisons (ACTUAL NUMBERS AND FLOW FIGURES, I.E. MAF G/S)
Intake MAF diameter
Intake issues (links to the problem w/ oil on the MAF for whoever posted it)
Other misc hard data about different intakes, i.e. not opinions on what is better - example would be a posted datalog showing differences in IAT, or LTFT/STFT on various intakes (rather than unsubstantiated opinions)

Either delete some posts or take this off of the sticky list - this thread should no longer be a sticky IMO with all of this nonsense bickering.

As always, just my .02

[MSMS3]

Both Gen 1 and Gen 2 have "ram air." I put that in quotes, because neither is true ram air. I'll explain.

Gen 1 pulls the air in through am underhood scoop from the front upper grill and routes it through a sealed duct to the intercooler. It then has a side duct that goes over to the area of the battery box where it dumps some of this ambient air.

Gen 2 pulls the air in through a scoop on the hood. There is also a sealed duct to the intercooler. However, there is no side duct over to the battery box. Instead, there are a series of elongated small holes around the sides of the duct right above the intercooler that would allow this air to generally enter the engine bay as well as provide heat exchange air for the intercooler.

There is no evidence that either is superior to the other, to my knowledge. Neither is a true ram air.

True ram air has been experimented with and used in racing applications, the ram air effect has been shown to be minimal until you get up to pretty high speeds, typically 100 mph or higher. And since ram air has to increase air PRESSURE within the intake manifold itself, it is a non-issue on forced induction engines from a practical stand point where that pressure is determined by the turbo and the ECU.

Our cars benefit from a drop in intake temperature, however we get there, but it would take something like 100 mph or higher speed to make any real difference in intake pressure from a true ram air system, IMHO.

[Ckmazdaspeed3]

I do have a true ramair intake, but thanks, you still answered my question... Just not the answer I wanted to hear.