All Out MzR Engine build

[jreiden1]

Originally Posted by theschrum Please make me a manifold like this Pablo. I haz no welding skills but I have some $$$...

it's not just the manifold. you'll need to move and relocate everything

[theschrum]

Originally Posted by jreiden1 it's not just the manifold. you'll need to move and relocate everything

Hey, I'm no brownie.

[Cobb Tuning]

Originally Posted by ms3blackmica This has nothing to do with our platform but I just hope the RPM axis isn't a limit that Cobb can't work out. Hell I'm sure some of you would be happy if you could at least command spark up to 7500. @David@COBB;

It's similar to our dynamic load scaling axis changes, and is a dynamically generated axis that is shared with many other tables in the ECU. It's a pretty involved process to do correctly, and the same efforts would have to be done to accommodate that (as I did with Load).

In the way we have done it, each cell is looked up individually and isn't a useless scalar/offset method, so you can get higher resolution above low load and focus on fine tuning it. Others use the easy but not as useful offset/scalar.

Getting back to your request about RPM axes, it's just that such a small amount of people actually have a built motor to support a higher redline that the efforts would not benefit the other 99% of the users. I'm not saying we won't do it, just not yet based upon where the rest of the cars in the community are.

-David@COBB

[Downmented]

Originally Posted by David@COBB It's similar to our dynamic load scaling axis changes, and is a dynamically generated axis that is shared with many other tables in the ECU. It's a pretty involved process to do correctly, and the same efforts would have to be done to accommodate that (as I did with Load). In the way we have done it, each cell is looked up individually and isn't a useless scalar/offset method, so you can get higher resolution above low load and focus on fine tuning it. Others use the easy but not as useful offset/scalar. Getting back to your request about RPM axes, it's just that such a small amount of people actually have a built motor to support a higher redline that the efforts would not benefit the other 99% of the users. I'm not saying we won't do it, just not yet based upon where the rest of the cars in the community are. -David@COBB

WHat if we kidnapped you and forced you to do it? While working in a basement eating nothing but twinkies and drinking mountain dew? I bet your going to reconsider arent you lol

[Enki]

Hook a standback up to his genitals.

[Tokay444]

That's an AFI manifold I believe.

[theschrum]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 That's an AFI manifold I believe.

Edit- I guess so http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...3126136&type=1

I hope they can make one for me soon.

[NJSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Dano yes but without the PI you still have to spray enough fuel to feed the car which gets harder and harder the higher the RPMS go up. But again shouldn't be a problem with the PI.

Dont talk back to me Old man!!

[Dano]

the beauty of being old is you forget when you may have insulted someone...bliss it is....

then again there are other things that make one forget things at an earlier age...hum...

[NJSPEED3]

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by David@COBB It's similar to our dynamic load scaling axis changes, and is a dynamically generated axis that is shared with many other tables in the ECU. It's a pretty involved process to do correctly, and the same efforts would have to be done to accommodate that (as I did with Load). In the way we have done it, each cell is looked up individually and isn't a useless scalar/offset method, so you can get higher resolution above low load and focus on fine tuning it. Others use the easy but not as useful offset/scalar. Getting back to your request about RPM axes, it's just that such a small amount of people actually have a built motor to support a higher redline that the efforts would not benefit the other 99% of the users. I'm not saying we won't do it, just not yet based upon where the rest of the cars in the community are. -David@COBB

@David@COBB;

can you at least tell us what the hard coded limit is right now? is it 8k?

ultimately timing is the only table we really need it in. fuel, VVT, boost, ect can all ride the last cell indefinitely after 7k RPM because those arent values that need to change dynamically with RPM (atleast not after 7k).


would it be a nightmare to change just the timing table?

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes @David@COBB; would it be a nightmare to change just the timing table?

This.

David I believe that is all we really need/want.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Originally Posted by ms3blackmica Versa Tuner does claim the support to 8k and the tables allow you change values up there. Lex confirmed the load axis is good but nobody has tested it to 8k to see if we have any control or if the ECU will run the ignition advance we would set. Pablo lets test it!

Sure we can try it see what happens. But I am kind of like the versa tuner since they rev to 8k who know my be 8.5k.

Originally Posted by theschrum Edit- I guess so MazdaSpeed Topmount | Facebook I hope they can make one for me soon.

Yes its a AFI manifold you should see how the ms3 manifold can out.
Here is a pic of mine wait until you see the egt setup.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

My next thing I am worry about is coil pack dwell time if its enough because of the amount of fuel that will be spraying from the PI setup or anyone else who might be going a pI setup. Has anyone found a way to increase the time on it since cobb don't have a table for it.

[Cobb Tuning]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes @David@COBB; can you at least tell us what the hard coded limit is right now? is it 8k? ultimately timing is the only table we really need it in. fuel, VVT, boost, ect can all ride the last cell indefinitely after 7k RPM because those arent values that need to change dynamically with RPM (atleast not after 7k). would it be a nightmare to change just the timing table?

To do it right (i.e. only changing it just for ignition and NOT globally which causes other tuning issues) it will be. Any other company doing otherwise is doing a disservice to the end user in damaging their car.

Keep in mind this is a dynamically generated axes shared with other tables aside from ignition, so my changes would make a custom generated axis specifically for just ignition.

Originally Posted by ms3blackmica This. David I believe that is all we really need/want.

I'll throw it on the list and talk about it in our weekly meeting.

Originally Posted by Downmented WHat if we kidnapped you and forced you to do it? While working in a basement eating nothing but twinkies and drinking mountain dew? I bet your going to reconsider arent you lol

I hear Kickstarters or petitions are pretty good as an alternative to that

-David@COBB

[Dano]

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH My next thing I am worry about is coil pack dwell time if its enough because of the amount of fuel that will be spraying from the PI setup or anyone else who might be going a pI setup. Has anyone found a way to increase the time on it since cobb don't have a table for it.

I think @djuosnteisn; did some investigating on that in the past but not sure what the results were.

[ms3blackmica]

@David@COBB; think of it this way..

When members start making 800whp, you can post it up in the blog as AP tuned ms3 breaks 800hp




Edit: this platform is really moving along and fueling solutions are improving. If we can get more control and make power, then I think this would be something you guys could really be proud of.

[ms3blackmica]

Just an update on Pablo's recent progress..

As you saw earlier, he already keyed the crank and made a keyway for the pulley. That is all set and done. Next was to establish the same principle for the cams. Pablo and I were talking about this for a long period of time last week to help me understand the concept.

He decided to pin the intake cam. The VVT still will function as OEM and tuning will be no different just with the relief that bigger cams won't shoot a valve through the head if it slips.

Pablo took a video to show the inner workings of the VVT and how pinning it will not have an effect on cam advance.

No need to thank this post BTW. Its all @SPEED6 KILLAH;



***hopefully I can get this video to post!

DISI VVT Inner Function - YouTube

DISI VVT Inner Function - YouTube

[BlueStreak]

Beauty.

The plan is to not pin the exhaust cam to allow for proper mechanical timing?

[Dano]

noob question here but if you pin or key everything that process has to be 100% fool proof and aligned perfectly correct?

if you only keyed the crank you could still "adjust" mechanical timing with the friction washers on the cam's.

Just trying to wrap my head around how you are accurately marking everything for keying/pinning, esp the intake cam w the VVT involved.

edit: Dave is on my train of thought

[ms3blackmica]

It took Pablo a chipotle cup, a ton of drawings and 2 hours to finally get me to understand his plan.

Ill let him explain the rest lol

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Dano noob question here but if you pin or key everything that process has to be 100% fool proof and aligned perfectly correct? if you only keyed the crank you could still "adjust" mechanical timing with the friction washers on the cam's. Just trying to wrap my head around how you are accurately marking everything for keying/pinning, esp the intake cam w the VVT involved. edit: Dave is on my train of thought

The VVT mechanism allows 30* of concentric movement of the cam WRT the timing chain. If I understand correctly, he is putting a dowel pin to attach the camshaft to the centre section of the VVT preventing it from slipping mechanically.

On older cars, the cams and crank are keyed.

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by Lex If I understand correctly, he is putting a dowel pin to attach the camshaft to the centre section of the VVT preventing it from slipping mechanically.

This.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Lex The VVT mechanism allows 30* of concentric movement of the cam WRT the timing chain. If I understand correctly, he is putting a dowel pin to attach the camshaft to the centre section of the VVT preventing it from slipping mechanically. On older cars, the cams and crank are keyed.

I understand physically what hes doing but just wondering how hes getting things lined up to keep the cams and crank in phase.

Don't you have to be able to take up slack somewhere and perhaps the plan is in the ex cam?

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by Dano noob question here but if you pin or key everything that process has to be 100% fool proof and aligned perfectly correct? if you only keyed the crank you could still "adjust" mechanical timing with the friction washers on the cam's. Just trying to wrap my head around how you are accurately marking everything for keying/pinning, esp the intake cam w the VVT involved. edit: Dave is on my train of thought

You are correct.

The process does have to be fool proof.

The exhaust cam sprocket will be pinned as well.

Pablo is using reference marks just for this.

[Dano]

IIRC those are factory markings

but I get your point.

[ms3blackmica]

And the chain as well

Originally Posted by Dano IIRC those are factory markings but I get your point.

Yes they are.

My B!

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Dano I understand physically what hes doing but just wondering how hes getting things lined up to keep the cams and crank in phase. Don't you have to be able to take up slack somewhere and perhaps the plan is in the ex cam?

Generally with keyed cams and crank you simply turn the entire cam once the gear is installed via either the retaining bolt - or some cams have hex keys machined into the cam itself. Once you set the cams and crank you take up the slack via the tensioner.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Lex Generally with keyed cams and crank you simply turn the entire cam once the gear is installed via either the retaining bolt - or some cams have hex keys machined into the cam itself. Once you set the cams and crank you take up the slack via the tensioner.

roger that we have hex built into the cams. With washers there is infinite adjustment to remove the slack between the two cams but with pins this will not be the case. no adjustment for a slightly worn chain vs a new one for example. perhaps .5* is nothing to worry about if its even that much. Then again once everything has moved through the tensioner I guess it is off a tad anyway even in OEM setup.

at any rate very nice for the guys running dual valve spring setups and reving out further.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Dano roger that we have hex built into the cams. With washers there is infinite adjustment to remove the slack between the two cams but with pins this will not be the case. no adjustment for a slightly worn chain vs a new one for example. perhaps .5* is nothing to worry about if its even that much.

Yup, this is why with chains they used friction washers. With belts they get swapped out frequently. In any case if you pin any 2 points you will have this problem. if there is slack in the chain. For the average bear keying the crank will be the thing to do if you're going to do anything.

Another interesting bit of info - the 2.0 VW TFSI that makes 200hp uses a chain. The TT-RS or Golf R version (250+hp) use timing belts.

In before timing belt swap.

[Tokay444]

Doing it this way just means you have to mark the chain and and sprockets, which you should always do before disassembly anyway.
In my opinion the diamond washers were a cost saving measure that eliminated 7 machining steps.
This is how the motor should have been made from the get go.
As far as alignment accuracy goes, we're not talking about microns here. The Honda guys have been eyeballing tdc reference marks for decades and its never been an issue.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by ms3blackmica @David@COBB; think of it this way.. When members start making 800whp, you can post it up in the blog as AP tuned ms3 breaks 800hp Edit: this platform is really moving along and fueling solutions are improving. If we can get more control and make power, then I think this would be something you guys could really be proud of.

you mean like this

=D

http://blogs.cobbtuning.com/2011/11/...essport-tuned/

[TWOptSL0W]

hmmmm i like all this

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

I set it up easy to time the motor. Just ask yourself how do time a EVO X motor that key and have pin on both vvt.
Like Tokay444 said "This is how the motor should have been made from the get go" keyed and pin.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

I can tell you one thing about are DIsi head they can flow more with some porting here is a pic of cfm numbers..

[Jh8909]

what do those numbers mean to noobs like me

[Tokay444]

That's the flow on all 8 cylinders silly.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 That's the flow on all 8 cylinders silly.

No that from different lift point going from 0.500-0.5000 lift

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH No that from different lift point going from 0.500-0.5000 lift

What is the cfm flow at the maximum lift for your cam? From there I can get you an estimated hp number or what the head will support at "x" psi

[Tokay444]

Hahah. I'm just trolling.
But Pablo, .5 is .5 is always half. It doesn't matter how many zeros you put after it.