In-tank Methanol Tuning

[JgamB]

I spoke briefly with @Justin@Freektune; about in-tank methanol, and it appears it's an overlooked means of getting E85 performance by visiting Home Depot instead of trying to find a station with Corn.

There are some upsides to it:

No meth kit needed, so no plumbing, wiring, failsafes, nozzles, etc. to worry about. No additional tank to keep full or mount somewhere you might be uncomfortable with for safety.

2 Gallons of Meth will give you the knock protection of ~3 gallons of E85, so you can get that sweet spark advance and give up just a little bit less specific gravity (fuel overhead) with a higher gasoline concentration.

And of course the downsides:

It's being consumed all of the time, unlike a MAF/MAP based controller that is only using methanol when you demand it with your right foot.

It's comparatively expensive.

You aren't getting *extra* fueling like a meth kit can provide, but if you're not looking for 400hp or more it isn't going to matter.


Justin stated he's got a couple/few cars that have been running like this for quite some time, and used to do it himself for a couple of years. If you don't want to install a meth kit, and you can't get E85 readily but want more power, this could be a viable alternative. I'm just tossing it out there because it looks like a solid alternative to get some alcohol in your combustion chamber with minimal fuss and great results.

[JgamB]

I should add that local speed shops often carry VP race fuels - meth here is $5 per gallon by the gallon, or $3.80 per gallon for a 45 gal drum. I didn't ask if it was M1, 3, or 5.

[RJTSi]

Thanks for the info dude. Looks like this would be pointless for me since I have 2 E85 stations within a mile of my front door. I'm also looking for the added fuel headroom that meth gives since I'm about to run out of injector DC with the Corksubishi 18g

[NCspecV81]

I highly suggest if you're putting it intank to go with an m3 or m5 mix as they have an added hydrocarbon and will make more power than straight meth. M5 is generally considered the better variant when using it intank. I use 1 gallon of straight m1, but don't really "tune" for it. I would not suggest using m3 or m5 in a wmi system. Not good for the pump.

[speedboost]

I just finished tune last week with Stratified - 94 pump & only 1 gallon meth in tank gave me e85 type results.

Able to get 19* timing and hold boost at 18.5psi to 6500 on K04. Very happy with results!

We don't have e85 stations in province Alberta so I was looking for alternative fuel too.
Home Depot way cheaper than VP fuels around here.
Meth is thought of as being corrosive but in amounts around 10% it is safe in tank.
People have been using for years as octane booster. Took me a while of searching to find other mazdaspeeds using but they are out there - and it works!

From what I've read it sounds like 1 amount of meth = 2 amount e85 by volume, so you only need half as much.

[AwAfrican]

Originally Posted by speedboost I just finished tune last week with Stratified - 94 pump & only 1 gallon meth in tank gave me e85 type results. Able to get 19* timing and hold boost at 18.5psi to 6500 on K04. Very happy with results! We don't have e85 stations in province Alberta so I was looking for alternative fuel too. Home Depot way cheaper than VP fuels around here. Meth is thought of as being corrosive but in amounts around 10% it is safe in tank. People have been using for years as octane booster. Took me a while of searching to find other mazdaspeeds using but they are out there - and it works! From what I've read it sounds like 1 amount of meth = 2 amount e85 by volume, so you only need half as much.

What are you using for meth?

[speedboost]

good ol' Home Depot - Methyl Hydrate 99.9%
walmart & rona have but around here seems cheapest spot.
About the half cost M1 for me

[AwAfrican]

Well dam this may be a viable option! I'm in Ontario so not much e85 either. I'm not pushing enough yet to even warrant e85 or meth just yet but its nice to know that down the road this is an option. Especially if Justin has already tuned a couple of cars this way.

[RJTSi]

Does using in tank meth avoid the injector headroom reduction that comes with e85?

[justinsane87]

Originally Posted by speedboost good ol' Home Depot - Methyl Hydrate 99.9% walmart & rona have but around here seems cheapest spot. About the half cost M1 for me

Where in Alberta are you? Fury on Sherwood park freeway has m1 for something $1.35/litre is what it works out to

[AwAfrican]

How do injectors / fuel pump hold up to meth in the fuel tank?

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by RJTSi Does using in tank meth avoid the injector headroom reduction that comes with e85?

No.

[Justin@Freektune]

Originally Posted by AwAfrican How do injectors / fuel pump hold up to meth in the fuel tank?

They hold up perfectly fine. 10% meth in gasoline vs. 10% ethanol is very common across the world. So going a little beyond that has shown no ill signs. I ran 2 gallons of meth per tank on top of my meth injection for quite a while. The only thing it's starts to hurt is your wallet if you are running vp fuels. A gallon of vp m1 can cost anywhere from 7-10 bucks a gallon where I live.


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[sheston]

@Justin@Freektune; and @JgamB; where do you get the 2 gallons of Meth equals 3 gallons of E85? I've been using it for over a year now, and it seems more like @speedboost; has experience, I run 2 gallons of Meth instead of 4.5 gallons E85 and think I get better results.
@speedboost; You should post a Vdyno. Are you built?

[Hammology]

The only thing that stops me from doing this is the price. Meth isn't cheap around here. I wish they sold methyl hydrate in Home Depot here like they do in Canada.

[Justin@Freektune]

Originally Posted by sheston @Justin@Freektune; and @JgamB; where do you get the 2 gallons of Meth equals 3 gallons of E85? I've been using it for over a year now, and it seems more like @speedboost; has experience, I run 2 gallons of Meth instead of 4.5 gallons E85 and think I get better results. @speedboost; You should post a Vdyno. Are you built?

There is no 2 gallons meth equals 3 gallons e85 equation haha

I have just seen similar results with a 2 gallon meth mix compared to small e85 mixes. I think Jason was just stating that a little meth in tank goes a long way for knock protection

[NCspecV81]

@Hammology; I'm not sure about CA, but in NC some tireshops keep methanol for farmers' tractors. Methanol is used in combination with a water mix to "fill" tires to provide additional weight/traction. I know a few places where I live that carries pure methanol in the generic, "off brand" variety for such tire filling.

I may give it a whirl once all my VP runs out...bwhahah whenever that is.

[mize13]

Methanol has a higher heat of vaporization than E so you get good in cylinder cooling along with what others have said (knock protection and potentially more power through spark advance)

[Tokay444]

If you can't find methyl hydrate at your home dept, look for denatured alcohol.
It's ethanol with a small percentage of methanol to make it poisonous to drink.

[IMASA]

There's always air brake anti-freeze which is supposed to be 99% methanol and 1% rust inhibitor. It's about half the price of methyl hydrate where I'm located.

[xfeejayx]

Damn, Justin, you're a double meth head? Thought you looked a little crazy eyed.

Look for threads by Phate for more info on this, also. He did some bench testing for what happens to a couple seals/components in different concentrations. He's got the math for meth/ETH DISI equivalent, but not sure he posted that.

Between Justin and Clint, I think they've proven this works wonders for an in tank solution with minimal side effect with low concentrations.

[JgamB]

Originally Posted by xfeejayx Damn, Justin, you're a double meth head? Thought you looked a little crazy eyed. Look for threads by Phate for more info on this, also. He did some bench testing for what happens to a couple seals/components in different concentrations. He's got the math for meth/ETH DISI equivalent, but not sure he posted that. Between Justin and Clint, I think they've proven this works wonders for an in tank solution with minimal side effect with low concentrations.

Clint's tests showed some significant swelling of the seals at high concentrations, but this looks like a safe bet if you're just chasing MBT.

I've seen quite a few people complain they can't get corn and wish they could, don't want to screw with a meth kit, etc. Figured this might help awareness as it's not specifically listed on Justin's (or any other tuner's site) to my knowledge.

[Awal]

Going to try it tomorrow if I get the chance, HD or Lordco Bound, HD 1st. I was thinking about just dropping in 2l (roughly 1/2 gal) and hoping it lets me run 91 Canadian octane with no KR over .5 on a 93 oct map..

will report back with results.

long version of subbed.

[Awal]

I think one of the big reasons our 94 octane gasoline in BC (or at least the Vancouver area) fails so hard is because Chevron uses 0% ethanol in the 94.

It looks like I have been wasting money on Chevron 94 octane in my MS3 ever since I bought it new. I tried my 1st full tank of Chevron 91 (up to 10% ethanol, which I assume means NO LESS than 9.9% ethanol considering how much $ they save by using it in the 1st place) and I did notice that I actually got about an average of 1-1.5 mpg better, city and HWY. I noticed no loss in power, and no excessive knock/KR when I hooked up my AP about 1/2 way through the tank.

Been on a bunch of different OTS and modified OTS tunes since then, and a full tank of 94, which I noticed sucked quite a bit for KR, but then again I switched up maps quite a bit.


I'm back on full 91, just put in 1/2 a gallon of methanol from HD and topped it up with 17 liters of 89.. lol totally not scientific, I know, I just wanted to get something in to the tank on top of the methanol to mix it in a little better.. Going to run through the tank and do as many logs as I can. Next tank I'll put in a full gallon of meth when I fill up, which should be roughly 7% of my tank. Not sure how big our fuel tanks are on paper, but I have fit 65 litres (when pretty much bone dry) numerous times.


I'm not putting in the meth to tune on it, I plan on going to WMI and will tune for that, but I am seeing if I can mitigate/eliminate an occasional knock spike (1-3, sometimes, rarely, 4-5) that I get around 4500-5000 rpm at POT. I know knock sensors can occasionally be triggered by vibrations, and I'm a little bit suspicious of the PMM. Gonna try swapping out the PMM some time in the future if the occasional KR continues..

Chevron should have a sign that says "CONTAINS 0% WIN" for their 94 octane. No wonder people loved Husky and Petro Can 94 so much back when we had it, theirs had ethanol in it..

Sorry, that was a super ramble..



TL;DR (I put in .5 gallon of meth to a tank, will report back with any findings)

[GARRETHEXTREME]

In tank methanol has really intrigued me lately, since I don't really want to do meth kit or anything like that but I'm drooling for its cooling properties. E85 is also not readily available around me, closest station with it is like 45 mins away from me. So this sounds like a legitimate alternative to lower my BAT and prevent knocks. I'm curious to see what is the long term result of this

TAPPPPPin

[Awal]

In tank won't lower your BATs, WMI will (or better ICs, or external H20 IC misting).

When u use Water/Math or Meth injection, in a Throttle Body spacer or in the TB end of the IC cold pipe, you are essentially creating a boost/MAF voltage (starts working at X amount of boost, or starts working at X MAF voltage[g/s of air]) controlled chemical intercooler.

Via the tank, you are using meth as an octane booster, nothing more. Especially since this is a Direct Injection application the fuel never has an opportunity to be in the intake side of the motor.

Doesn't mean it doesn't work to allow your car to run more power, just does it in a very different way.

[superman]

Purpledrank tuned my car for intank meth and I love it. For me the biggest setback is measuring out the methanol into a gas can to put it in the car. Storing it and transporting it can also be a hassle, but the gains are well worth it. Best gas I can get where I live is 91 but its really more like 89, no ethanol anywhere either. For people in a similar situation this may be the best option for you.

[maddocx240]

There was a thread on this in fuel section that died out. I was contemplating trying this out. Gonna see how if home depot carries it out here by me. But I do have 2 e85 stations not far from me too.

[Awal]

Originally Posted by superman Purpledrank tuned my car for intank meth and I love it. For me the biggest setback is measuring out the methanol into a gas can to put it in the car. Storing it and transporting it can also be a hassle, but the gains are well worth it. Best gas I can get where I live is 91 but its really more like 89, no ethanol anywhere either. For people in a similar situation this may be the best option for you.

LOL, yeah, when putting it in tank one of the 1st things I thought is why don't they sell this shit in no spill/drip containers.. I will fab up a nice in-tank funnel tomorrow at work that will minimize this issue, but yeah it can be a bit of a sloppy job with paper funnels ..

If you happen to be filling up when yer not on your last bar of fuel and you are tuned for it, then yeah, I could see measuring out the right amount being a bitch and a half. In those situations, just try to use a 1l or 1qt container to help the process, but remember, this is not about being within an oz or several ml to get it close to what you want, unless you are tuning it for a VERY specific ratio, just try to meet your min desired ratio then add a splash (50 mls to an oz) to be safe...

Luckily with the OEM hatchback Mazda mesh cargo net, I can carry around a ton of shit without anything sliding around or spilling, so that helps with carrying around a few different sized bottles/funnels along with some gallon jugs of meth.

[IMASA]

Originally Posted by Awal I think one of the big reasons our 94 octane gasoline in BC (or at least the Vancouver area) fails so hard is because Chevron uses 0% ethanol in the 94.

If you're in Vancouver, make the trek to Arcade station in West Vancouver. They have E85. I run about a 25% E85 mix, about 10L per tank. I bring 30L in jerry cans and 1 trip lasts 4 tanks of fuel.

[Awal]

Originally Posted by IMASA If you're in Vancouver, make the trek to Arcade station in West Vancouver. They have E85. I run about a 25% E85 mix, about 10L per tank. I bring 30L in jerry cans and 1 trip lasts 4 tanks of fuel.

Yup, I'm familiar with that e85 pump, if I was in the heart of Vancouver I would have already done it. I'm just in the process of getting all the j-cans possible, then buying a few others then I'm gonna make a trip down there and fill up as many as I can fit. I will store it in a several 5 gal or one 50 gal drum at work and use our shop fluid pump to tap it as needed.


For now tho, $20 of meth for 1-3 tanks of study was easy/convenient, and worth giving it a go..

Been keeping an eye out for e85 pumps as well , would love one in Langley or even Surrey.

[insain]

I'm in the same situation as well. I picked up a cp-e intercooler and colder plugs to see if my knock would go down during WOT, but with the crappy 94 Chevron I had no luck . I'm thinking of making the trips to Arcade Station or dumping methyl hydrate in the tank for th the time being.

[sheston]

I agree with @Awal; the only thing wrong with Meth in tank is the dripping. I really hate the new child proof gas cans. Makes you have to use a funnel

[AwAfrican]

Yay for Ontario petro 94 with e

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[Justin@Freektune]

Originally Posted by sheston I agree with @Awal; the only thing wrong with Meth in tank is the dripping. I really hate the new child proof gas cans. Makes you have to use a funnel

I would invest in a vp race fuel can. It will make your life a whole lot easier


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[sheston]

I've got 2 normal 5 gallon tanks and one JP race fuel, with the filler neck and valve. Use the VP to fill up a 2 gallon POS....

Get 15 gallons at a wack, works pretty good for me. @Justin@Freektune; Does VP make a 2 gallon fuel can? I didn't see it where I shop

[Awal]

Originally Posted by insain I'm in the same situation as well. I picked up a cp-e intercooler and colder plugs to see if my knock would go down during WOT, but with the crappy 94 Chevron I had no luck . I'm thinking of making the trips to Arcade Station or dumping methyl hydrate in the tank for th the time being.

I've read and heard from quite a few people who had a bad experience going to colder plugs with only minor bolt-on mods, most switched back to stock heat range right away.

I will look for a VP fuels jerrycan. I have like 4-5 different designs and they all suck if you need to use them on a regular basis.

Derp, I'm just going to make up a cap that screws onto the top of the 1 gallon jugs with a better filler nozzle that pulls the pour point out another 2-3" and see how that works..


With stuff that is so thin like meth/brake clean/solvents all of the containers I see daily in the shop drip until they are about 1/2 full or less.

[AwAfrican]

I run 1 step colder without issue at all and I'm only intake / tip / dp / internals, just saying

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[Awal]

Originally Posted by AwAfrican I run 1 step colder without issue at all and I'm only intake / tip / dp / internals, just saying sent via tapafail!

nice, glad they worked out for you.

Considering all the slight differences all of us MS3/MS6/CX-7 owners come up against it hardly surprises me that there are people with minor-mid-max bolt-ons who have had good results with stock HR to one step colder HR. In the end I guess most of us are just going to have to try it to know for sure.

I'm certainly not trying to lead anyone in the wrong direction regarding heat ranges on Sp plugs, just trying to see if others can chime in as well to add to the info resource.

[NCspecV81]

I bought a VP jug and the dern lip isn't square with the seal under the lid so it leaks. I'm going to have to sand it down and square it. So disappointed.