In-tank Methanol Tuning

[Awal]

Originally Posted by NCspecV81 I bought a VP jug and the dern lip isn't square with the seal under the lid so it leaks. I'm going to have to sand it down and square it. So disappointed.

Good to know, at their prices, shit shouldn't be leaking. Have you since compared it to another new one to see if they're all the same?

[NCspecV81]

nope. I'm gonna file this one down and find another solution if I need more jugs.

[AwAfrican]

Edit: posted in wrong thread *face palm* well I guess that's what happens when you spend 12hrs working on cars during the day

sent via tapafail!

[MD1032]

What AFR are you guys targeting? I run a 2 gallon mix. I'm finally getting around to dialing in a new methanol tune tonight…been probably over a month since I last ran it. Last run I did with this proportion, I didn't vdyno my tune, but it made a significant difference And at $4 a gallon I can't afford not to do it.

[sheston]

I run 2 gallons per tank and I target 12.1 AFR. I also spray with a D07 nozzle

[Awal]

Ok, I would say I've been running about a max of 2 liters (approx 1/2 a gallon) per tank (of 91 w/ up to 10% eth) and I went from having occasional non WOT KR peaks of 4.5 to the occasional non WOT peak of 1.9-2.5 KR. During WOT I am never going over .5 KR and I used to hit 1-1.5 KR sometimes at WOT.

I know the occasional high peaks here and there under partial throttle aren't really much to worry about, but I have DEFINITELY noticed a pretty significant difference in KR all around since I've been adding a bit of meth in tank for the last few weeks.

Again, I'm not tuning for it, as I have a few more mods to do before I start my custom tune, but so far, @ $5 cdn (2l of meth) per tank of gas, I'm happy with the results:cost ratio.

Next step I thought I might try is the OTS 93 oct map (the rest of the map staying the same) to see if the in tank meth I've been adding will meet the 93 Oct requirements.

Regardless, I have seen a benefit in reduced KR, and considering a full tank lasts me 2-3 weeks, $5 ain't shit.

[acousticdefbot]

Originally Posted by Awal a full tank lasts me 2-3 weeks...

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by Awal Ok, I would say I've been running about a max of 2 liters (approx 1/2 a gallon) per tank (of 91 w/ up to 10% eth) and I went from having occasional non WOT KR peaks of 4.5 to the occasional non WOT peak of 1.9-2.5 KR. During WOT I am never going over .5 KR and I used to hit 1-1.5 KR sometimes at WOT. I know the occasional high peaks here and there under partial throttle aren't really much to worry about, but I have DEFINITELY noticed a pretty significant difference in KR all around since I've been adding a bit of meth in tank for the last few weeks.

Yeah, that's one thing I've noticed with Methanol, it pretty much eliminates 95% of the KR you usually see. I haven't yet seen any LSPI events with Methanol either (granted I've probably only used it for about 1000 miles total), just tip-in/part throttle knock which is generally understood around here to not be real. It's great being able to just floor it when your BATs are 180°F and not see a single count of KR.

Well last night I got through 7 revisions and still didn't get any knock whatsoever. I'm basically running the E37 map posted here at this point, which I wasn't able to do before with the stock IC on the same mix. I'm probably going to try slowly leaning out further from 11.6 (already up from the 11.0 I was using on 93) and then if I still don't see knock, possibly target higher loads/boost. Currently running 2.30/20 tapering to 1.80/17.5.

Oh, and 3rd gear logs are now useless for vdyno. Getting some wheelspin finally...that's progress.

[Awal]

Originally Posted by acousticdefbot

Because 3minute commute, equals just about 17k Kms since September 2013

[AnubisFSU]

Originally Posted by Awal Ok, I would say I've been running about a max of 2 liters (approx 1/2 a gallon) per tank (of 91 w/ up to 10% eth) and I went from having occasional non WOT KR peaks of 4.5 to the occasional non WOT peak of 1.9-2.5 KR. During WOT I am never going over .5 KR and I used to hit 1-1.5 KR sometimes at WOT. I know the occasional high peaks here and there under partial throttle aren't really much to worry about, but I have DEFINITELY noticed a pretty significant difference in KR all around since I've been adding a bit of meth in tank for the last few weeks. Again, I'm not tuning for it, as I have a few more mods to do before I start my custom tune, but so far, @ $5 cdn (2l of meth) per tank of gas, I'm happy with the results:cost ratio. Next step I thought I might try is the OTS 93 oct map (the rest of the map staying the same) to see if the in tank meth I've been adding will meet the 93 Oct requirements. Regardless, I have seen a benefit in reduced KR, and considering a full tank lasts me 2-3 weeks, $5 ain't shit.

Curious if 2L of meth will allow use of a 93 octane map. Around here 91 is very common and a few places carry 94 at obscene prices.

[Awal]

Originally Posted by AnubisFSU Curious if 2L of meth will allow use of a 93 octane map. Around here 91 is very common and a few places carry 94 at obscene prices.

So am I my friend, so am I. I just need to find a bit of spare time to transfer my WGDC values from my 91 map to the 93.

We actually have 94 octane here at every Chevron, but unfortunately they 'pride' themselves on it being guaranteed 100% ethanol free. Before I had my AP I had been running Chevron 94 octane since the car was new, once I got the AP though, I decided to run a tank of 91 octane, which has up to 10% ethanol, and I found I got just as good or better performance from my MS3 in every way, even without any mods or ecu flashes.

Petro Canada and Husky used to carry 94 octane out here in BC about 5 years a go or so, those were the good old days for forced induction vehicles.


Canada needs to get over the whole 'ethanol is durty' complex.

[AnubisFSU]

I bought 2 gallons of methyl hydrate from Canadian tire, 2L currently in the tank with some shell 91. Running a stage 2 91 Oct map until I grab a couple logs. I'll hopefully have some results with a 93 map after this weekend. Huskey here still carries 94 Oct but it doesn't specify how much ethonal content it contains.

[MBalik]

Originally Posted by IMASA There's always air brake anti-freeze which is supposed to be 99% methanol and 1% rust inhibitor. It's about half the price of methyl hydrate where I'm located.

Would this actually work or is it best to stick to the other stuff?

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk

[AnubisFSU]

Finally found a safe place to get a 4th gear log, boosted air temp 110F - 120F. Going to flash a 93 version of this map.

[AnubisFSU]

Managed to get a good 4th gear log with a 93 octane map, currently have shell 91 with half a gallon of methyl hydrate in the tank. everything looks safe.

[Hammology]

You know there is calculators on teh interwebs, so you don't have to guess lol

[AnubisFSU]

Originally Posted by Hammology You know there is calculators on teh interwebs, so you don't have to guess lol

For serious? I did search for a calculator quickly but nothing turned up. Guess I'll take another look.

[Hammology]

Originally Posted by AnubisFSU For serious? I did search for a calculator quickly but nothing turned up. Guess I'll take another look.

Your welcome: Octane Mix Calculator - Wallace Racing

[Tifosi42]

@MD1032; @Awal; @AnubisFSU;

Any updates on the in tank methanol? Since the closest E85 station is an hour and a half drive and no WMI for autox I am looking to get a 2 gallon in tank methanol tune along with a straight 93 tune once I acquire a downpipe. I have been running one gallon of VP M1 in tank just for knock protection (not tuned for it) with great success at the drag strip and at autox as well. Just curious how it has been working out for you guys and if you are seeing typical E85 mix results.

[MD1032]

I've been running it intermittently for 2-3 months now. I use it whenever I get the chance. I would definitely say I'm getting low E85 mix (3-4 gal) or better results. The only problem with running methanol is that when you switch back to 93, the car knocks all over the place and the power sucks balls. The whole car just runs way better with methanol.

I haven't even used all of my knock headroom and I'm running 100% WGDC in the top end with timing at 18.0° @ 6000, 20.0° @ 6500 RPM. I have logs under those conditions on the dyno where BATs climb into the 140-160°F range with zero KR, and that's with AFR's in the 12's and high 11's (can't remember what I was targeting at that time exactly). I always tell people, besides the power, the best thing about methanol is that you can just floor it whenever you want...no worrying about heatsoak or BATs.

Do yourself a favor and pay the little extra for the methanol map. You probably won't even use the 93 map except in an emergency once you feel what the methanol can do.

[Tifosi42]

I can definitely attest to the not worrying about KR with methanol in the tank. I did an autox run in July with a starting BAT of 172 F and there was no knock at all, I couldn't believe it. I will be definitely be getting both maps just because I probably won't run methanol in the winter time. Thanks for the input and the update @MD1032;

[sheston]

I've been running Meth @ 2 gallons per tank for at least a year and a half. No knock problems (running 28 psi at low rpms on the K04) and live in Texas, so 2 of the worst heat sources. Like @MD1032; said, I get more protection with 2 gallons of Meth than I did with 4.5 gallons of E

[Awal]

I've suffered a 11k mile premature K04 failure setback, and prior to the 'catastrophic failure' of my K04, at 2l (1/2 a gallon) of meth per tank my KR went way down and it made a substantial difference with our shit gas.

Again, that was not for the sake of tuning, I just added a bit during the peak of summer to help the shitty gas we get up here aid in POT/WOT knock prevention. And it did so wonderfully.

I didn't tune for it as I'm about to start supplying E85 from our shop, just making sure I have all the red tape covered b4 doing so.


ATM I'm back to stock (engine wise) and I'm still throwing a liter into the tank to help with octane as I'm only running 91 (w/ up to 10% ethanol) because I found 94 oct w/ 0% ethanol (guaranteed) didn't perform as well as 91 w/ up to 10% eth without any meth added.

I'll have more info/data one I've finished dealing with the Mazda Warranty BS and get my engine mods back on and i start proper tuning..

[Hammology]

Originally Posted by sheston I've been running Meth @ 2 gallons per tank for at least a year and a half. No knock problems (running 28 psi at low rpms on the K04) and live in Texas, so 2 of the worst heat sources. Like @MD1032; said, I get more protection with 2 gallons of Meth than I did with 4.5 gallons of E

28psi on a K04?

[Tifosi42]

Has anyone done a UOA besides @NCspecV81; (with incredible amounts of meth)? I was curious if anyone has seen any excessive wear metals with the two gallons of in tank methanol. I run Rotella T6 @ 5k mile change intervals myself but have not done a UOA as of yet. Also, are the any other issues that one may have encountered due to the two gallons in tank besides excessive grinning from extra hp/tq?

[MD1032]

No.

Mazdaspeed 3/6 UOA Results

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[speed23]

Are you guys modifying fuel gravity table in atr for only 1 or maybe 2 gallon of meth added? I run a pretty rich 93 oct tune so assume that I should fine leaving it alone (but adding a little timing to make use of the added octane)

[Awal]

Originally Posted by Hammology 28psi on a K04?

Must have one of the K04s made out of unicorn horns and fairy wings But more likely it's just tuned really well. I was hoping to get to at least 20 on the K04 but my 1st one ate it's self at 17 psi.

Originally Posted by speed23 Are you guys modifying fuel gravity table in atr for only 1 or maybe 2 gallon of meth added? I run a pretty rich 93 oct tune so assume that I should fine leaving it alone (but adding a little timing to make use of the added octane)

Yes, the people running 2 gallons or more need to modify the FG table to get the full benefits of running that much in tank meth. I know there's some info around here somewhere on it, but because I wasn't using that much it's not something I did.

[aromig]

Originally Posted by Hammology 28psi on a K04?

Sweet zombie Jesus, man.

[sheston]

Well, maybe only 27.5, and it does fall like a rock after 4 - 4.5 k

How else am I going to destroy it and convince the wifey that I need a BT?

Don't get to use it much, but pulled a new corvette on the way home. I wish I could have seen the look on his face as I pulled by him (at illegal speeds)

[Awal]

Originally Posted by sheston Well, maybe only 27.5, and it does fall like a rock after 4 - 4.5 k How else am I going to destroy it and convince the wifey that I need a BT? Don't get to use it much, but pulled a new corvette on the way home. I wish I could have seen the look on his face as I pulled by him (at illegal speeds)

I'll be tty soon..

I want to run my K04 pretty hard, but I don't mind if it tapers safely.. I don't want anything near yer peak PSI, I just want to be able to turn it up with a Corksport 3.5 SRI/TIP, CS TMIC w/ stock shroud, CS 80mm catless TBE wit 1 resonator, and all supporting mods (HPFP internals, EBC, 3 bar MAP, AP V3, CS BPV). Using WMI or tuning for intank Meth or e85 (just convincing my partner at the shop it's work stocking) for the end tune..

[chance91]

Good discussion. Reminds me of Toluene that was very popular a while back, though It got expensive. Toluene is about 114 octane vs methanol's 100 or so.

Some notes, Methanol/Toluene are sold as paint thinners/detergents, and likely remove some lubricant properties from the fuel (noted some people mentioned this) ATF or other lube would be a good idea to add into the mix to keep things happy. Also, here is a bit of info on the subject. Porsche/Audi people have been doing this for over 30 years. Also, some of these chems are used in making of illegal substances, so buying large amounts might get you flagged if you look suspicious, I recall buying a few 5 gallon buckets of toluene and getting my ID scanned.

Homebrew Octane Boosters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane...mber_.28RON.29

R M R+m/2
toluene 121 107 114
ethanol 108.6 89.7 99.15
methanol 108.7 88.6[ 98.65
E85 gas 102-105 85-87 94-96


Another interesting tidbit:
Toluene at 86% by volume fuelled all the turbo Formula 1 teams in the 1980s, first pioneered by the Honda team. The remaining 14% was a "filler" of n-heptane, to reduce the octane to meet Formula 1 fuel restrictions

[sheston]

@chande91; something doesn't seem right about your numbers. I've read Meth is much higher than that. I guess I could look it up again. But the hard numbers are that I got more KR protection with 2 gallons of Meth per fillup, than I did with 4.5 gallons of E85. Not sure how your numbers support those findings. Also, I'm not the only one who has had amazing results with Meth

[Ozynigma]

Originally Posted by sheston @chande91; something doesn't seem right about your numbers. I've read Meth is much higher than that. I guess I could look it up again. But the hard numbers are that I got more KR protection with 2 gallons of Meth per fillup, than I did with 4.5 gallons of E85. Not sure how your numbers support those findings. Also, I'm not the only one who has had amazing results with Meth

Originally Posted by chance91 R M R+m/2 toluene 121 107 114 ethanol 108.6 89.7 99.15 methanol 108.7 88.6[ 98.65 E85 gas 102-105 85-87 94-96

The numbers look pretty right to me.

Meth RON 109
E85 RON 102-105

Adding it to fuel that is say 98RON (in my country), meth will have a much greater effect than E85 and a similar effect to straight ethanol.

[chance91]

Originally Posted by sheston @chande91; something doesn't seem right about your numbers. I've read Meth is much higher than that. I guess I could look it up again. But the hard numbers are that I got more KR protection with 2 gallons of Meth per fillup, than I did with 4.5 gallons of E85. Not sure how your numbers support those findings. Also, I'm not the only one who has had amazing results with Meth

They are quoted numbers, not my own math, but seem relatively accurate. It doesn't take a significant octane increase to reduce knock. That's the point of 93 or 91 vs 89 or 87 in higher performance cars. Some Audi and Porsche cars will advance timing for use with up to 95 octane (R+M/2 method, US).

Either way, check out the first link I posted, it has the formula for Methanol included if you know your exact mixture amounts.

Just being helpful, obviously Methanol in the tank will increase octane as it is much higher than any other fuel. There are other reasons it might feel better than ethanol, such as energy density, etc.

[0nsp]

I'm really interested in trying this out because there is no E85 in this province. It seems like people are only using at most 2 gallons of methanol in the tank. However when I run it through the calculator, I get numbers of 3.5 gallons per tank for the equivalent octane of an E35 blend, or 5.35 gallons per task for the equivalent of an E48 blend, which is significantly more than what people have been running. Am I missing something? Is it too corrosive to be running that much in tank meth or has no one yet tried it?

[Tifosi42]

Methanol Direct Injection

[Justin@Freektune]

Originally Posted by 0nsp I'm really interested in trying this out because there is no E85 in this province. It seems like people are only using at most 2 gallons of methanol in the tank. However when I run it through the calculator, I get numbers of 3.5 gallons per tank for the equivalent octane of an E35 blend, or 5.35 gallons per task for the equivalent of an E48 blend, which is significantly more than what people have been running. Am I missing something? Is it too corrosive to be running that much in tank meth or has no one yet tried it?

I would run up to 2 gallons. That is what I tested in my car, and it performs very well. remember with e85, that is only 85% alcohol, where methanol is 100% alcohol. The Stoich ratio of methanol is also less than it is with ethanol, so when tuning, using 2 gallons of meth seems and adjusting the tables in the tune, it lines up close to with where we would set the tune for a 3 gallon e85 mix

[0nsp]

Yup, I found my mistake. I was mixing up the MON and AKI numbers, throwing off my calculations. E35 equivalent is 1.5 gallons per tank, and E48 equivalent is 3 gallons of meth per tank. 2 gallons sounds about right and is the equivalent of an E38 blend. Thanks @Justin@Freektune;

[speed23]

I just tried 1 gallon of meth in my speed6 (so larger tank=less % of meth) and was quite surprised how much knock resistance it provided. I was able to run 3* more timing in the top end vs my normal 94 octane tune.

I ran the following timing values:

5000-13*
5500-14*
6000-16*

As an aside, I dont know how close I am to knocking with these values. I am also running a small amount of meth injection as well just incase (but of course meth system was unplugged for this test)