In-tank Methanol Tuning

[sheston]

That's what I've been talking about. Seem to get more than with Eth

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by speed23 Are you guys modifying fuel gravity table in atr for only 1 or maybe 2 gallon of meth added? I run a pretty rich 93 oct tune so assume that I should fine leaving it alone (but adding a little timing to make use of the added octane)

Sorry for the late reply here. I'm using @sheston;'s values (thanks again man!) for my 2 gallon mix and they work well enough with my car. The car will not run correctly without changing these values.

Fuel gravity = 0.7482 kg/m^3
Injector scalar = 1.08

I hope to see more people using this in the future. I really wish we had a dyno verified timing map for this mix, but the E85 ones phate posted are probably in the ballpark.

[sheston]

I think I'm running 1 to 2 degrees shy of the posted advanced timing maps. Mainly because I added some and didn't see much if any increase in Vdyno, backed off and then found the posted numbers.

[MD1032]

Hello again, in-tank methanol folks.

For informational purposes I would like to report that I ran into an issue last night where my spill valve would not function correctly. For a few minutes, my fuel pressure dropped to about 50-80 psi and my ECU threw a p0089 which is "fuel pressure regulator performance" and the Gen2 Mazda service manual basically states that this is most likely spill valve operation failure. Then it seemed to return to normal but with odd fluctuations. I asked Clint about the spill valve and he said this behavior was typical for a gummed up spill valve.



The inside didn't look bad at all. There was some black residue which I cleaned off with some IPA and a toothbrush. The only thing abnormal was that the inner piece that slips inside the c-clip didn't really seem to move very freely when I disassembled it, unlike after I cleaned it.

After reassembly, all is well and functioning normally.

Fuel: I have never used E85. The problem appeared while on my second tank of 93 after a very long time period of using ITM at a 2:10 ratio with gas.

Oil: Rotella T6

I have doubts that ITM is responsible for this problem. What I should have done was try to dissolve some of the gunk in methanol and see if it's a solubility issue where my methanol mix is dissolving and carrying gunk into the fuel system, which is then crashing out when straight 93 is run again. That was my only thought.

[sheston]

@MD1032; I forget, how long have you been running Meth? I don't drive a lot, but have been running for quite a while now. 2 gallons per tank.

It will be interesting to see if your problem reoccurs. Keep us informed. Thanks

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by sheston @MD1032; I forget, how long have you been running Meth?

Well, at this point everyone knows me at the company I buy my methanol at. lol

I've run it sporadically on and off ever since you and I initially talked about it, but I do keep that info in my fuelly. If I use it when I fill up, I put a note in my fuelly: if my fill-up is 13 gallons, for example, and the note says "2 gal methanol", it's 2 gallons of methanol and 11 gallons of gas. I'll throw the link in my sig, and a copy here:



My usage is a lot higher because mine is my DD.

edit: Apparently [URL] BB code isn't allows in sigs here. Weird.

[sheston]

Mines a DD also, just I don't live far away from work, and my wife nor anyone else will ride with me :-)

[BuddySpeed3]

Originally Posted by speedboost I just finished tune last week with Stratified - 94 pump & only 1 gallon meth in tank gave me e85 type results. Able to get 19* timing and hold boost at 18.5psi to 6500 on K04. Very happy with results! We don't have e85 stations in province Alberta so I was looking for alternative fuel too. Home Depot way cheaper than VP fuels around here. Meth is thought of as being corrosive but in amounts around 10% it is safe in tank. People have been using for years as octane booster. Took me a while of searching to find other mazdaspeeds using but they are out there - and it works! From what I've read it sounds like 1 amount of meth = 2 amount e85 by volume, so you only need half as much.

I am thinking of running 1 gallon of methanol in tank. What should I change my fuel gravity and injector scalar to? Injector scalar is currently at 1.00, and fuel gravity is at 0.74

Sorry if that's already been answered

Thanks!

[Tifosi42]

I will be getting tuned by Justin for in tank methanol shorthly. He will be finishing off my 93 octane tune from the OTS I have and then we will be on to the in tank methanol tune. I was curious as to what mixes everyone runs who runs in tank methanol. It seems most people run 2/10 or 2/11 mixes, but I was just curious. I ran one gallon of VP M1 just for knock protection last year with 12 gallons on top. My goal is to run the least amount of methanol needed to reach MBT with no knock when mixed with 93 octane fuel.

[nukepilot]

Glad I found this. I have been contemplating this for a while now and wasn't sure why anyone hadn't tried it. guess they had. e85 is far and it would cost about the same to buy a couple 5 gallon jugs of f&l race meth, and add 2 gallons of m vs 3.5 e. 100% meth has an effective octane rating of 180 sooo yeah!! @MD1032; have you been using that S1 additive ?

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by nukepilot Glad I found this. I have been contemplating this for a while now and wasn't sure why anyone hadn't tried it. guess they had. e85 is far and it would cost about the same to buy a couple 5 gallon jugs of f&l race meth, and add 2 gallons of m vs 3.5 e. 100% meth has an effective octane rating of 180 sooo yeah!! @MD1032; have you been using that S1 additive ?

No need for S1 additive or anything special for that matter with in tank methanol...add methanol, tune appropriately...enjoy.

[Tifosi42]

I have just completed my 93 pump gas tune with Freektune and started an in tank methanol tune. I am using 2 gallons of VP M1 at this point until I run out and then I'll probably just get Sunoco methanol from the local drag strip. I will post results once the tune is complete. I also plan on hitting a local dyno after the in tank methanol tune is complete to get some real numbers.

[sheston]

Excellent. Can't wait to see the comparisons

[MD1032]

I'll also be dynoing my BNR S3 sometime soon on ITM. Only power mods I have are 3" catless TBE, intake, and upgraded TMIC. Looking forward to seeing how much I can squeeze out of this mix. Will post map, logs, etc. Trying to arrange a time to get it done. Unfortunately it's a little pricey at both of the shops in my area ($100).

I'm expecting to see about 340-350 whp and 350 wtq based on the vdynos I have. Not quite as much power as E but more than enough for me honestly...way more than I could ever use autocrossing, that's for damn sure.

[sheston]

I'm a believer that you can get more power from Meth than E, but that may be because the highest E I tried was close to E40, 2 gallons of Meth give me more power than that

[MD1032]

I haven't seen that trend honestly Sheston...E85 does produce more power in my limited experience so far.

The principal reason for this is that you can run a higher percentage of ethanol than methanol at the same stoichiometric ratio, because ethanol is inherently less oxygenated. I have my E85 and ITM tunes and mixes set up to run the car at roughly 100% IDC in the top end, however this corresponds to something like 16% methanol/8% ethanol versus 33% ethanol. Keep in mind that ethanol actually has a higher enthalpy of vaporization compared to methanol (cools more). The way this plays out is that at the same WGDC values, I achieve higher loads with E33 than with ITM. It's noticeable enough that my BNR S3 spools earlier. I've also found that I need a slightly different timing map with ITM compared to E33 because for some reason my E mix seems to burn a lot faster (lower timing values produce the same torque). These two effects (cooling + burn speed) combine to give you a little more timing headroom with E85, and therefore more power headroom.

I don't understand why ITM would produce more power for you. The only thing I can think of is that your methanol injection system is skewing the results somehow, or your timing maps weren't optimized (mine aren't either honestly...I'm too cheap to pay for dyno time). I am not running any aux fueling yet personally. I also have a different turbo than you and that probably changes the game too, as my BNR can easily overwhelm the octane capabilities of both ITM and E33 in the top end if I run enough WGDC. Therefore I taper loads as I approach redline, just like you would if you were tuning on gas.

[Tifosi42]

Sorry for the delay, but both tunes are complete now and I have to say I am very satisfied. I have done a night at the drag strip (13.8 @106; 5 runs) and a day at autox (7 runs) and the in tank methanol mix allows me to run the car very hard without hesitation no matter the BATs. The car is an absolute pleasure to drive on either map with all very tight fuel trims. My only problem now is that I have way more power than grip, but that is my next thing to address. I definitely would recommend an in tank methanol tune to anyone who doesn't have E85 readily available.

I have attached two Vdynos generously provided by Justin, one from 93 pump (32 degrees ambient) and the other for 2 gallons of in tank methanol with 93 pump gas (85 degrees ambient). I have not had the time or availability to get to the local dyno yet and am not sure when I will, but I will eventually get there to see what the in tank methanol map is putting down on the rollers.

[MD1032]

I haven't finished my shit yet because for one thing I'm moving and pretty busy. Second, my fuel pump internals seized up. Autotech is shipping me some replacements.

[TiGraySpeed6]

ooof, that's ugly

[sheston]

Wow, it's good and interesting that the low fuel pressure didn't cause any KR. I guess it just dropped not tanked

[blackms3_71]

Originally Posted by MD1032 I haven't finished my shit yet because for one thing I'm moving and pretty busy. Second, my fuel pump internals seized up. Autotech is shipping me some replacements.

What did you have to do to get a replacement? I brought my internals back in 2012. No way i have the receipt lol

[specvspeedfreak]

@Tifosi42; I see you as a very OCD type; am I correct? lol

[Tifosi42]

Yes @specvspeedfreak; I definitely have OCD tendencies. I'm guessing the alphabetized manufacturers for my mods gave it away. Haha.

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by blackms3_71 What did you have to do to get a replacement? I brought my internals back in 2012. No way i have the receipt lol

Nothing other than mail them in. I was surprised they didn't ask for a receipt at all.

[MD1032]

Originally Posted by sheston Wow, it's good and interesting that the low fuel pressure didn't cause any KR. I guess it just dropped not tanked

Look at my AFR's. It tanked enough for me to lean out hardcore. The methanol prevented knock, and ZZB.

I put the new internals in yesterday and everything seems OK so far. Since I've been on 93 for a while now, I'm going to take the opportunity to patch up my MAF cal (haven't done it in a long time) and then I'll toss meth back in and get back to work.

[FSRRM]

Hey team! Thanks so much for all the info. I'm now running 5L of Methanol before fuel up using 98RON fuel (NZ).

Adjusted fuel gravity and pushing 24PSI and using a E42 timing map on the ignition timing tables provided by Phate.

I'll be looking to donate to your club soon to say thanks! I have a dyno day coming up so it be good to get numbers. Edit: Done

https://youtu.be/noh2WMv7y6w

[sheston]

Wow, you really get to 150 mph quick. I'm assuming that you meant M42 map?

Do you spray as well? or just in tank.

Also, donating soon looks like you meant it :-)

[Polish_Eagle]

Originally Posted by sheston Wow, you really get to 150 mph quick. I'm assuming that you meant M42 map? Do you spray as well? or just in tank. Also, donating soon looks like you meant it :-)

that's KPH not MPH.. haha

[FSRRM]

Hey guys yeah it's KPH, I haven't dyno tuned it yet, just using logs and keeping the timing pretty conservative.

I have issues with traction even at 70KPH dropping 3rd and accelerating car starts skating along the road.

I have a dyno day coming up so I will do some runs

Work my way up and see what I can squeeze out

Later on I'm making a K04 Hybrid with an Audi Compressor 51/62 and see what I can get out of it.

Sheston I use 5L in-tank meth only


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Poachersun]

Hey guys hopefully a quick question. Is running 1 Gallon of Meth intank Ok without changing fuel gravity? Mainly want to use just for the 1/4 mile strip and occasional track day. Already have meth spray tuned with Maf Cal/AFR good (slightly on the rich side to be safe). Just want it for extra knock control just to be super safe.

It's more for peace of mind and because i don't drive my car much, i have spare methanol to use up . I also have access to e85 but figured may as well use the methanol up.

[Tifosi42]

I have used a gallon of in tank methanol for knock protection for racing before e85 became available in my area with no ill effects. You will notice your fuel trims shift slightly positive, but otherwise you should be fine. I would do the one gallon in tank at an empty fill up to minimize the effects on fuel trims. Take advantage of the e85 you have local to you and continue to spray and get even more knock prevention and increase the longevity of your piston rings.