What the hell is going on now?

[Joellc2434]

SO a little while back I posted some of my logs where in doing 3rd gear pulls I would very briefly hit my boost target of 18 an then in would quickly die off. I did a boost leak check and everything was fine but still was having the same problem. SO basically I started all over again with the MAF cal and the Alibor tuning gude. Did a pull this morning where I started in third and shifted to 4th. Well. I still can't hold boost in third. But when I went to 4th my boost held much better. However while I am hitting my AFR targets fairly well in third I went rich in 4th. Here are my logs and also my tune. Hope to get a little help here.

[phate]

I would unplug the steering wheel angle sensor to make sure it isn't interfering. I really hate that sensor.

[Joellc2434]

Originally Posted by phate I would unplug the steering wheel angle sensor to make sure it isn't interfering. I really hate that sensor.

Really! Wow that is not an answer that I was expecting at all. I'll check it out.

But why is my AFR off so much in 4th gear while being on target in 3rd? Anyone...anyone?

[Boost_creep]

This is a table that Cobb has yet to discover it seems. What @phate is getting at is that the steering sensor seems to affect boost and fuel tables. No one is really sure how yet, as they are still hidden to us.

Read this:

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...disable-90739/

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by phate I would unplug the steering wheel angle sensor to make sure it isn't interfering. I really hate that sensor.

I was under the impression and it's been my experience that the SWAS only affects power in 1st and 2nd. Have you experienced it in 3rd?


Tapadatass

[phate]

Originally Posted by silvapain I was under the impression and it's been my experience that the SWAS only affects power in 1st and 2nd. Have you experienced it in 3rd?

Oh yeah, some cars it still limits 3rd. I haven't seen this consistently, but it definitely does in a few.

[Joellc2434]

Thanks for all the info guys. Can't wait to try this out

[Joellc2434]

OK I'm still having issues after I unplugged the SWAS. Still can't get to and hold 18 in third gear. Also when I shift into 4th my boost spikes. AFR goes rich and also noticed that Spark advance goes into negative numbers. As I step on the gas when shifting into 4th the car feels very sluggish but then starts to pick back up. Still trying to find a place to get a good pull in. Also getting time with wife and kids is nearly impossible. Please look at my tune in the OP and try to fix me. ALso here is a new log of the crappy 3rd to 4th pull


Edit: I think that the car is pulling so much timing as I go into 4th because of the noise the knock sensor picks up when shifting. You'll notice I get 3.5 knock when at 0 pedal position. It is were I have lifted off the throttle and put in the clutch and since it picks up that much knock (false knock) the ecu pulls a lot of timing and the car has no guts until it realizes there is no knock and adds timing again.

This is my theory. Let me know what you guys think

[Joellc2434]

Anyone...Anyone? I figure this is the reason but I want to know for sure before I try to combat the issue

[phate]

Yep. The shifting control tables - minimum ign and whatnot - should get you close to what you need.

[Joellc2434]

Originally Posted by phate Yep. The shifting control tables - minimum ign and whatnot - should get you close to what you need.

BUt do you think it is real knock or just noise when shifting? If its real then I guess some timing changes need to be made but I'm not quite advanced enough to start working on that. If it is just false knock or noise that is getting picked up is there a way to basically turn off the knock sensor when my clutch is engaged.

You mention the ign timing (min) tables I believe. Mine are set to -13.5 for both open and closed throttle. THe ATR help file mentions dropping them to -3 for some MS6's . It says;

Tuning Tips – Reducing this value down to roughly -3 degrees appears to resolve post shift stuttering on MS6 vehicles.

DO you think that would work for me?

[Chimmike]

stock k04 right? Your elevation in vegas is above sea level, so the turbo is working harder to make 14psi vs at sea level. Also, the fact that you're on k04, those have a tough time holding max boost to redline, just the nature of the turbo.

[Joellc2434]

^^^ You are probably right. It does hold boost a little better when it is cold outside (air more dense). I'm more concerned now about the loss of power when I shift into 4th. When I just accelerate from 4th everything is fine but going 3 to 4 I get that hard KR count and a lot of timing is pulled. Just trying to figure out how to fix. I did read a post from djuosnteisn about reducing my knock decay rate and offset which shouldn't be to hard to do. And then phate mentioned the shift tables but I will probably need a little help there.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Joellc2434 BUt do you think it is real knock or just noise when shifting? If its real then I guess some timing changes need to be made but I'm not quite advanced enough to start working on that. If it is just false knock or noise that is getting picked up is there a way to basically turn off the knock sensor when my clutch is engaged. You mention the ign timing (min) tables I believe. Mine are set to -13.5 for both open and closed throttle. THe ATR help file mentions dropping them to -3 for some MS6's . It says; Tuning Tips - Reducing this value down to roughly -3 degrees appears to resolve post shift stuttering on MS6 vehicles. DO you think that would work for me?

Yeah, you pretty much nailed it. It is more apparent on MS6's, but I have logs of both 1st gen and 2nd gen MS3's doing all of this (both throttle close kr and post shift "lull"). The throttle close kr happens on just about every car, so it's very doubtful it is real. The throttle close kr typically doesn't cause any sort of issue, so I don't worry about it.

The post shift "lull" is allowed by the Ign (min) tables. Some cars, not all and not every time, will pull a ton of timing mid-shift without any kr reading, and then it is very slow to ramp in timing afterwards. I had a 2011 MS3 do this and it caused the AFR's to go rich until the timing came back up a little bit from the "floor" of -13.5°. Raising that floor did wonders for the car.

The value that you should use is really dependent on the timing values that you are commanding. You need to give yourself a safety factor. So if you are running -4° at 2500rpm in your OL/No Knock ignition table, you want to give yourself a cushion for kr to pull timing beyond that, if the need arises. So maybe -5° or -6° in that case for the "floor" values. If you have good gas or are tuning with ethanol, it is likely you will never command below 0° or -1° of timing advance, so a -2° or -3° "floor" would work fine.

I typically change the kr offsets only as a last resort. Most of the time random kr is caused by something rattling around in the engine bay. Some cars, though, are just damned noisy. My fidanza flywheel is an example of this noise. Use an increased offset only if you are absolutely sure nothing can possibly be causing noise in the engine bay.

ps - Thanks for searching

[rfinkle2]

Some of the testing and David's accompanying post about what Phate is discussing here:

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...ml#post1022238

[Joellc2434]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Some of the testing and David's accompanying post about what Phate is discussing here: Ignition Timing Limit (Min) (Throttle Closed / Throttle Open / Low ECT)

I clicked on your link but it seemed to be broken. Those are the tables that I figured that I would have to look at. Figure that changing the closed throttle to -3 would be safe but it makes me nervous to change the open throttle table. Since what it sounds like phate was saying is that one input will make -3 for example the lowest value possible overriding all ignition tables.

My car is doing exactly as he described and is pulling a lot of timing during shift which lowers (enriches) my AFR's about a point or more below target. When the timing comes back so do my AFR's.

I never get get knock above .7 when at WOT but get this big count only when shifting. I just don't see how it could be real knock.

Any of you have a good suggestion on what to input into some of these tables like the -6 that phate said. I release you of all liability in the case that I blow up my car

But if I do make it -6 my car will still pull timing to the -6 and my car still won't have the power after shift when the false knock shows up. Wow I typed that and I don't know if it makes sense to even me

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Joellc2434 I clicked on your link but it seemed to be broken. Those are the tables that I figured that I would have to look at. Figure that changing the closed throttle to -3 would be safe but it makes me nervous to change the open throttle table. Since what it sounds like phate was saying is that one input will make -3 for example the lowest value possible overriding all ignition tables. My car is doing exactly as he described and is pulling a lot of timing during shift which lowers (enriches) my AFR's about a point or more below target. When the timing comes back so do my AFR's. I never get get knock above .7 when at WOT but get this big count only when shifting. I just don't see how it could be real knock. Any of you have a good suggestion on what to input into some of these tables like the -6 that phate said. I release you of all liability in the case that I blow up my car But if I do make it -6 my car will still pull timing to the -6 and my car still won't have the power after shift when the false knock shows up. Wow I typed that and I don't know if it makes sense to even me

Phate brought those tables up to me, so his advice is > mine.

Broken link fixed above, reposted here:

http://www.mazdaspeedforum.org/forum/foru...ml#post1022238

Some detail available in the atr helpfile also pg 63/69.

http://www.accessecu.com/support/doc...MAZDASPEED.pdf

[Joellc2434]

Originally Posted by David@COBB Ignition Timing Limit (Min) Throttle Open/Closed - used to fix the issue of Lift-to-shift timing pull. This is the timing "floor' that is hit when the ECU wants to ease back the power for the transmission to full load again. It will return to your current timing table after a slight delay. -David@COBB

This was a good explaination, however does this mean that it does not completely override your ignition tables in all cases but only while shifting? If that is the case then inputing a value like -3 for both open and closed throttle would probably work. Or am I off here again? Sometimes the more I read the dumber I get

[phate]

Well shit, hold on before you do that. Do you have Flat Foot Shift and Launch Control enabled?? Should have asked you that before anything.

[Joellc2434]

Originally Posted by phate Well shit, hold on before you do that. Do you have Flat Foot Shift and Launch Control enabled?? Should have asked you that before anything.

I was actually wondering if that would play a factor here but noone asked. I do have them enabled. FFS limiter at 5400 and LC at 2800( but need it higher)

[phate]

Originally Posted by Joellc2434 I was actually wondering if that would play a factor here but noone asked. I do have them enabled. FFS limiter at 5400 and LC at 2800( but need it higher)

LOL, put both of those at 6700 and re-test. If you have FFS enabled and DON'T flat foot a shift, the ecu goes stupid, doing exactly what you're seeing.

If you're really dead set on having FFS, then carry on with the Ign (min) tables.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Joellc2434 This was a good explaination, however does this mean that it does not completely override your ignition tables in all cases but only while shifting? If that is the case then inputing a value like -3 for both open and closed throttle would probably work. Or am I off here again? Sometimes the more I read the dumber I get

That is why Phate suggested you have a look @ your logs, and note the lowest ignition advance that your car runs during wot.

You may see negative numbers, and as a cushion, would want to set the values in the tables discussed above to 2 - 3* more negative than that lowest logged value (for safety).

In the case below, you would add a 2-3* buffer to the -4.5* value, -7.5*

[Joellc2434]

Originally Posted by phate LOL, put both of those at 6700 and re-test. If you have FFS enabled and DON'T flat foot a shift, the ecu goes stupid, doing exactly what you're seeing. If you're really dead set on having FFS, then carry on with the Ign (min) tables.

Awesome. I will definately try that. I know that I didn't FFS on that run. So I will try both and see if that was for sure the poblem

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 That is why Phate suggested you have a look @ your logs, and note the lowest ignition advance that your car runs during wot. You may see negative numbers, and as a cushion, would want to set the values in the tables discussed above to 2 - 3* more negative than that lowest logged value (for safety). In the case below, you would add a 2-3* buffer to the -4.5* value, -7.5*

When I was WOT in 3rd the lowest number I got was +3 so I think that I will just change the Ingition Timing Limit (Min) (Throttle Closed) to the -3 that Cobb reccomends for the MS6's and leave everything else alone. I'll try to do a pull or two shifting 3rd to 4th and see what I get and post the findings either late tonight or tomorrow morning.

I really appreciate all the input guys. This is really how it should work here on the forums

[Joellc2434]

I just updated the ATR and AP. Also the 210 maps have updated Shifter Control Tables for the MS3. The Ingition Timing Limit (Min) (Throttle Closed) table was set to -3 in their update. Also some changes to the fuel compensation tables. I am going to try and get a pull in with my old map. only the Ign Limit table changed...FFS and no FFS an then flash the new map I created with new changes from Cobbs v210 ots maps an o another pull. Stay tuned...